Island Radio Operated Car Club

Has anyone formally addressed our highly defective cells everyone keeps complaining about? In the past with other brands I have had money refunded or cells replaced. There is no reason why the truckload we bought shouldn't be treated the same.

i bought 2 packs, one pack has one really bad cell and the other pack has 2.

I went through the three packs I have and 1 pack is good and the other two had to be taken apart and recombined into one pack. I had 4 dead cells between the two packs. I thought I had an ESC going or bad motors becasue they would work ok for 2-3 minutes then it would feel like the motor overheated etc but it ended up that a couple of cells in each pack are at 0.5 Volts while the others are still at 1.1

I will be bowing out of electric next weekend as the the recombined pack I made still isnt that good so that leaves me with one battery, not enough to continue in electric.

I'll stick to nitro rather than purchase more batteries.

bring back 2400's those were the last good NiMH cells made in my opinion.

Also for the record my cells were like this from day one. I phoned Blake the very first night I assembled the packs and reported that after cycling the batteries once they appeared to NOT BE MATCHED so mine have been like this since day one.

Hey.

Yep. I think we've all had similar stories right out of the box - I noticed this first with my 4-cell packs the second weekend. It's like I had Chiclets for bearings or something. At the 6 min mark the pack felt like it completely dumped. I guess the question is whether or not the distributor has been made aware and what the remedial action will be if any. They're simply too expensive to dismiss the issue.

Have the exec chatted about this and approached the rep?

Phil

This is the 1st  I have heard of this thread.

If we are not made aware of the problem how can we solve it correctly?

1st things 1st.  IB is the cell manufacturer and SMC is a matcher ( we do not build these cells) All SMC does is enhance and match them the exact same as any other matcher out there.

2nd- SMC does stand behind their product 100%.


Right now IB is the best NMH cell for the racing market, With that said, All cells on the market right now ( EP, IB, GP and any other) have quarks..  They are all pushing the limits and the life-span is the compromise.

IB has found some material issues in past date codes, that can cause the cell to self discharge and lose voltage. ( this is what seems to have happened to Haddow's packs)

Any cell that does self discharge will be replaced by SMC as a courteous to our customers.  This has been well documented on major websites such as RC tech. Simply put we take care of our customers the best we can.

When SMC matches, we weed out any dead cells, but sometimes this can  come out after a 10 or more cycles, the best thing to do is keep some charge in the packs during the week. The instruction sheet provided with the packs states 200 seconds have been put back into each cell after matching and before transit. This is enough for a loose cell. Once the cells are made into packs we suggest 500 or more seconds to  be put back into the pack after the race day to store the pack from week to week. this is the best way to store any IB race pack ( again from any matcher)

One important note. racers always have there voodoo procedures that they have been doing for years to every cell ( dead shorting, charging at low or high crazy amps, etc etc etc ect)  plain and simple this is a thing of the past and if anyone does try to do their voodoo it can now ruin their packs. its a very fine line and the stuff that is coming out now is so advanced it has to be treated only in a certain way.

A good example: would be a F1 team. Say for example, Ferrari creates this 19000 + RPM engine  and all the testing has been done with a 10-30 synthetic motor oil. but when they show up to a race, the team manager says: " what? I have only used 5-30 in my race engines and that is what we will use" The engine blows up and costs them a race. Who's fault is it?

The point I am trying to make ( and it is hard on the internet) is that in todays racing, instructions are their more reason then ever before. in the past they were conservative to cover all bases this has always left room for racers to find better ways to get extra performance.. today they are really there to keep things running right for a long time and ensure the racer has the best possible power with the best possible life span, it is a very line..

Again, SMC will stand behind any faulty cell that you might have. Please make a list of the cell #'s  voltage and IR and SMC will send new cells to replace the faulty ones.

I have told Danny about this thread ( he is the owner of SMC) and will try to make time to answer questions on this forum ( or you can email him directly with any questions) danny@smc-racing.com or myself korgae@smc-racing.com

Thanks

Korgae

Quote from: "haddow"bring back 2400's those were the last good NiMH cells made in my opinion.

Huh?  The very first NiMH pack I ever used was a 3000, and it was a Panasonic that was good for maybe 5 runs.

I think you're tlaking about NiCad.  Those were far more reliable, although GP NiMH seemed to hold up for at least part of a season.

As Korgae said, I think many problems are caused by people doing too much to their batteries.  I seem to get pretty good life out of mine, and fairly good performance as well, and all I ever do is charge my batteries immediately before I race, and then race.

However, bad cells do happen from time to time, and although I've never had a defective cell in all the batteries I've ever used that was less than a few years old, I'm sure it could happen.

It is also possible some cells are being damaged during battery assembly.  Who's fault is that?  The manufacturer for making such a fragile product, or the user for destroying it and not following instructions?  I'm sure the manufacturer specifies that you're not to solder the cells, regardless of what the matcher says.

Thanks for the reply, Korgae.

We talk about this at great length on weekends and many local racers (and others on the mainland) like me follow the instructions provided on the insert and on the SMC website religiously. That is, however, with one exception: After the first week I needed to put 1500 mAh or so in my packs for 6 days storage since 1000 mAh was leading to at least two discharged cells by weeks' end. Over time those cells dropped off more quickly and significantly in their performance each race day. Personally, I baby my cells in that I don't push beyond the recommended charge rate (although some do) and I don't go below the recommended cutoff, and adhere to your recommended regimen.

Many of our club members are either scientists, electricians, mechanics or otherwise inclined to follow the logic of instructions carefully. So, while I appreciate what you are suggesting about aberrant voodoo methods of care, many of the folks here don't fall into that category. I have at least one bad cell in each of my packs and have since the first week.

Later.
P.

Quote from: "RC51". I have at least one bad cell in each of my packs and have since the first week.

Later.
P.

Like Tom stated, it happens.... And it would/could and does happen with all matchers If I would have know, you would be telling the other guys how quick the "warranty" pocess takes or how SMC stands behind the products, rather then adding fuel to the fire:)

email me and we will get you the new cells asap.

Hi there.

I have made frankenpacks as have others, and the old cells have been discarded. I'm not adding fuel to the fire, only exercising my perrogative as a consumer. This is the first and only time it's been raised here by me. Others have been raising this over and over and I'm simply the one raising it here - to ask whether or not the exec have amalgamated the details and approached you.

Thanks for the offer to replace the cells. Again, if someone on the exec has aggregated the info - I believe someone at the track was asking last weekend or the weekend before) - has it been advanced?

P.

Thanks Korgae

We will get together as a group and get some actual numbers regarding the cells. We have been complaining about the cells but not the matcher. Most people in the club understand the distinction between manufacturer and the matcher. So SMC is not being bashed here at all.

The reason you have not yet been contacted is that the grumbling has only now peaked with this thread as most discussion has been limited to small groups at the track on Sundays.

I also know the importance of people following the instructions but I think the number of packs not performing here in a group of racers with quite a bit of experience suggests that stupidity is not at the heart of the problem. I have not seen anyone dead short a pack all season. Like I stated earlier I tested my packs right away. Some would like to say it is my soldering abilities and a select few in our club think that they are the only ones in the world that can solder properly but I also do NOT think that is at the heart of the problem. If the handling was the issue then this would not be the first you heard about it as the average racer would be destroying all of your cells!

Anyway thank you again for supporting IROCC, as I say SMC is not being bashed and the name SMC hasn't really been brought up in this context. Most believe it is just the latest cells in general that are not so great. When I stated mine did not appear to be matched since they were bad right away...well that is exactly whet the evidence supported unfortunately.

Jody

Quote from: "Tom"

Quote from: "haddow"bring back 2400's those were the last good NiMH cells made in my opinion.

Huh?  The very first NiMH pack I ever used was a 3000, and it was a Panasonic that was good for maybe 5 runs.

yes I meant NiCd, allthough as far as good NiMHs the 3300s seemeed to last longer than the 3800 or 4200s (number of raceworthy cycles).

hey, only people that actually race and have used any of this batch of cells are qualified to comment.

i have had only one dead cell that i could find it was in 12 scale and as soon as the problem was mentioned i had a replacment cell  from smc through Blake!

Out of 4 packs, I have been able to salvage 3. As far as dropping the ball on you Korgae, I don't believe that was meant. I know Blake had said he was going to contact you, but I guess he has been too busy because as of Sunday I know he had not done so yet.

Yeah, sorry guys; I did mean to call Korgae last week but I just couldn't find the time during the working hours to do so.  I'm extremely busy these days with many different projects.

I had left it in Kurk's hands to organize a list of bad cells and numbers, and I was to find out where to send them for replacement.  Perhaps Korgae can provide that info to us here:  Is it directly to SMC, or is it to the distributor?

Anyway, as I've mentioned on many different occasions, to many different people at IROCC, SMC guarantees their products 100% and will always replace any substandard product.  I definitely have not done my job in liaising between our club members and SMC so I will try and improve this connection in the future.


Blake

Part of the problem in collecting numbers is that you need the right equipment to test each individual cell to determine which one is bad.  Some people in the club don't have any way to check their cells so its likely that there are lots out there that people are unaware of the extent or which cell(s) in their packs are bad.  Its also difficult to collect numbers "secretly" without posting it on the web page to get the feedback.  There was enough evidence from multiple cells in many of the people I did talk to to know that there is a major issue with the cells.

Now that the cat is out of the bag please let me know how many bad cells you have.  It took me about two days to properly test my 6 packs of batteries so its going to be a major chore to weed out the bad cells for those who don't have the test equipment.  I'll bring my discharger on Tuesday and Sunday (as usual) and we can try and determine which cells in your packs are bad.  Please make sure the packs are charged and it will take about two hours per pack to get some acurate numbers.

So far, I've checked 4 cells in one of my two new for Summer Season 4200 packs. The numbers so far are not good at all!

As you said Kurk,  it's a time consuming affair, taking just over an hour per cell on my Hi IQ2 at a 6 amp charge, 35 amp discharge, just like on the labels.

I'll have more info to contribute later.

is there someone that could test out my 2 packs. as i dont know how to actually do it right..

Im not sure what you guys are doing to test a cells, if you are attempting to simulate the #'s on the packs without the same equipment we use ( CE turbo matcher 35's in a temp controlled environment) then you will NEVER see the same #'s that are on the cells. No offense but this is the kinda voodoo I was talking about, a 50 or a 200 dollar discharger is not going to really tell you the data you need, It's point blank not the same as the 2000 dollar  maching machines that we use. especially once a pack is soldered, the #'s will be different almost imediateltly.

A bad cell is just that, a bad cell. the easiest way to determine a bad cell is to take a voltmeter and test each cell. for voltage.

Whe these cells go bad or are defective it is the voltage that goes bad.

Lets assume the pack is @ discharged to 5.40V ( .90 per cell)  if you see any cells that read well under .90 or if most cases a dead cell will read 0 volts then that is a bad cell.

People that have complained about having less power then another pack ( like haddow) has a bad cell, people that read to much into these personal dischargers or mathematical equations to simulate 35 amps and come up with #'s that do not match the pack #'s. do not necessary have a defective cell or pack.

If you want to truly cycle and evalueate a pack to see if the #'s hold up, find a CE 30, 35  of GFX and do a proper cycle on the pack, the#'s will all be within a 10 -15 seconds of the #'s on the packs the voltage will be bang on and the AIR will be slightly higher, why? because of barz/ solder and the longer leads on the GFX charger.

CE stuff is the best, that is why we use it and that is why it is the standard in the industy.

I will speak with Blake this week and get this figured out for all of you asap.

Thanks in advance.

Yes this is getting complicated. I dissagree it takes hours of cycling with special equipment. Also a post or two here may indicate they are trying to mimic numbers printed on the label but believe me this is not what the heck is going on here.
Treat the battery just like it is stated in the SMC instructions then just use a discharge tray and voltmeter, no voodoo or hours of cycling. When 2 cells die 4 minutes before the others, they are dead.

Even using a charger to discharge the whole battery rather than individual cells will also give an indication when you use your voltmeter.

There is also no voodoo in my opinion, just bad cells, the many bad cells seem to be good for about 1800 to 2000 mAh compared to the 4000 and over of the cell next to it in the same pack. So at the 3 minute mark a cell is at 0.5 volts while the one beside it is still at 1.1.

Korgae and Jody,

I should clarify that I'm not hoping to get the same numbers as what is stated on the cell label.
I'm simply using the 6 amp charge and 35 amp discharge rates to set the baseline to carry out my full battery test on my Victor HI-IQ2.

I've been involved with R/C car racing long enough to know that I'll get different test results using two different charger/discharger of the same manufacturer, let alone hope to achieve the same results as some high dollar, fancy smancy charger/discharger run under computer room tolerances!
I do however know that my HI-IQ2 has been set up exactly the same way, with exactly the same cooling and exactly the same power supply each and every time.
I know my HI-IQ2 gives very repeatable results.

The point is, of the 4 cells out of this brand new this year 4200 6 cell pack I've tested, the run time, the average voltage, the punch voltage, the maximum accepted capacity, and the capacity expended are all consistently low.

I tested this very same 6 cell pack May 1st of this year under the same exact conditions as I did today with the single cells.
Brand new, freshly assembled, this pack gave me the following results:
- punch voltage of 8.34V
- 21 ohms of internal resistance
- 648 secs of run time
- it took in 4700 mah and gave back 3580 mah
- average voltage was 7.50V

I don't consider yesterday's individual cell test results:
-  punch voltage ranging between 1.13V to 1.20V
- 333 seconds to 384 seconds of run time
- 4700 - 5000 mah in and gave back 3200 - 3700 mah
- average voltage for these same exact individual cells ranging between 1.00V to 1.05V per cell to be what I consider as acceptable.

The only results which are consistent are the internal resistance numbers, ranging from 8.9 ohms to 10.5 ohms per cell between the 4 tested cells.

These cells have not been abused, in fact I've tried to only used them once per race day, and we've raced less than 10 times so far this year.

Looking back through my test result data, I did testing in October and November of last year, and again in January of this year on 5 other 4200, 4 cell packs at a 6 amp charge and a 35 amp discharge.
The numbers on all of those 5 packs were far superior to what I've seen on these most recently purchased 4200 cells:
- punch voltage of the 5 packs tested  ranged consistently between 5.28V and 5.31V over the 3 different testing sessions.
- average voltage ranged between 4.70V and 4.80V
- run times were consistently between 400 secs and 430 secs.
Note, these packs were also raced every Saturday night in between tests!

I'm not using any VooDoo here boys.
I'm using repeatable and consistent testing procedures.
The results, at least in my case so far with the cells I've tested indicate there is, at least in my opinion, and obviously the opinion of others, a serious quality control/consistency issue.

Like I said, when I've finished testing this 6 cell pack individually , I'll test my other less than 10 race day old pack and see what I get for the results and let you all know.

As has been pointed out previously, I'm not the only one noticing performance issues with this/these batch(s) of matched 4200 cells.

Regards,
Nick

Quote from: "haddow"Yes this is getting complicated. I dissagree it takes ours of cycling with special equipment. Also a post or two here may indicate they are trying to mimic numbers printed on the label but believe me this is not what the heck is going on here.
Treat the battery just like it is stated in the SMC instructions then just use a discharge tray and voltmeter, no voodoo or hours of cycling. When 2 cells die 4 minutes before the others, they are dead.

Even using a charger to discharge the whole battery rather than individual cells will also give an indication when you use your voltmeter.

There is also no voodoo in my opinion, just bad cells, the many bad cells seem to be good for about 1800 to 2000 mAh compared to the 4000 and over of the cell next to it in the same pack. So at the 3 minute mark a cell is at 0.5 volts while the one beside it is still at 1.1.

I agree with Jody completely.  This is the exact problem that I am having, one or 2 cells in a pack will die minutes before the others.  I don't have a Turbo CE 30 or 35 but my discharging trays give a really good indication of which cell has voltage and which cell has next to no voltage after each race.  I marked my bad cells with marker to confirm this finding time after time.

Ken

Quote from: "haddow"When 2 cells die 4 minutes before the others, they are dead.

.

Correct, This is a "dead" cell. I think we are talking about the same thing in two different ways.  That cell has a internal short and will pull the rest of the pack down.

I am agreeing with you 100% on your statement.

Cells with internal shorts in them are easy to find before charging by checking the resting voltage with a volt meter. ( as I described in my last post)  the other way is to use a digit discharge tray as a indicator. your all right, the bad cell will finish way before the other good cells in the pack.

What I mean by voodoo is not towards the users, but more towards some of the claims that manufactures are making on certain products that are on the market right now. Some discharge trays ( or chargers) are good and others are not and all about marketing hype. It is hard to tell someone that just forked out $$ on a discharger or charger that it really doesn't do all that it is claimed to do in a accurate way.

Hard to hear sometimes and very hard to tell someone sometimes.

I don't want to turn this into debate thread and I am not trying to insult anyones intelligence. All I am trying to do is pass along info on what we have encountered in the past, answer questions and try to get this mess sorted.

Thanks

Korgae

We're not talking about our cells running at 1.220V @35 instead of 1.223V @35 as the label says.  We are talking about multiple cells that are dead.  Cells that after a few days with a fresh charge and no use have negligible (.4V, etc) voltage on them and no capacity.  I have batteries that crap out after 20 mAh and the others in the pack go for 2000 mAh +.  Bad cells plain and simple.  No voodoo here - simple science.

The only reason I spent hours on cycling, discharging, etc was to prove to myself without a shadow of a doubt that there was a problem with my cells and not any of my test equipment or procedures before I made claims of bad cells.  If I wanted to I can test them at a national standards Calibration lab but that seems overkill but if we need to go to that extent to prove that these obviously bad cells are indead that then pack up your batteries boys and we'll measure those cells to the nanovolt if you want.

Hey all,

Just got off the phone with Korgae.  We discussed the situation in detail.  I will give the full report later tonight as I'm in meetings for the rest of the day.

Blake

Hey Blake

Thanks for handling the issue. I found a use for my "not quite perfect" cells.....Ballast for my LiPO and adding weight to make my Pan Car the same weight as Brian and Phils...

(http://www.irocc.ca/stories/2007/race8-6-sm.jpg)

with the way you are using those cells, you will never get your cells trade in for good ones.....lol.......

So whats going on - oh the anticipation!  Tell me you're not still in your meeting!

Hey all,


I talked to Korgae for a while yesterday to try and get our minds around this whole thing.


Manufacturer vs Matcher
I believe that everyone in the club is aware of this now, but I'll explain it one more time here.  The cells that we racers end up using in our cars are actually built by a company called "IB", or Intellect Battery".  They're built in some humungous factory in China or something like that.  Then they're shipped to a myriad of different battery "matchers" like SMC, Trinity, Pro-Match, etc....  These matchers test each individual cell several times, stick labels on them with the test results, and then group them together into packs of similar test results.  We racers then end up with these "matched" packs.


The Sad Truth of the Battery War
The current batch of cells we received came from the absolute newest (and highest performance) batch of IB cells.  There are likely hundreds of thousands of these cells all over North America sitting in testing equipment at all the various matchers (SMC, Trinity, Pro-Match, etc...).  This batch seems to be VERY sensitive and has resulted in more than normal quantities of dead cells.

The sad truth of the matter is that these cells are almost considered disposable after just a few runs.  Sadly, racers around the world prefer top notch performance in exchange for any sort of lifespan.  We saw this in Cleveland last year as all the top racers would run a brand new IB 4200 pack for EVERY SINGLE qualifier and main.

This is obviously NOT the type of cell that a club like IROCC wants for its members.  I've already talked to Korgae about other cells types for future purchases.


SMC's Warranty
When batteries have issues, and racers complain, it's the matcher that ends up taking the blame.  It's easy to blame the matcher because it's their label that is on the cell.  This makes it tough for the matcher because they cannot return the battery to IB for replacement.  IB's "warranty" ends as soon as a racer solders the first bar onto the cell.

SMC has always maintained their own warranty to protect racers against flawed cells.  Ultimately this costs SMC money as they have to replace cells to the racers, but they cannot get any reimbursement from IB.


Process For Replacement of Dead Cells
Many of you have probably done this already, and it's not rocket science, but this is the process:

Charge your batteries as per the instructions in the box.  Run a race and then discharge the pack at high amperage down to 5.4V for the entire pack.  Then put the pack in a discharge tray and immediately note the status of the tray lights.  If certain lights do not activate, or if certain lights go out much earlier than the rest of the pack, then that indicates those cells are bad.  Mark these cells with an "X" or something and put them aside so that we can group them all together.

We need everyone to follow this process and honestly mark each individual cell that fails this test.  And yes, I know most of you have basically done this already.  The thing we're trying to avoid, is racers falling in a mass-hysteria situation where they will blame poor driving or a bad raceday on their batteries.  Yes, there definitely seems to be a major issue with these batteries, but we want to avoid them being used as a scapegoat for other factors.  So please use the above process, mark all your bad cells, and we'll get them grouped together to get an idea of numbers.

Once this is done, I can get a ballpark number to Korgae and he can arrange replacement cells through SMC.


Charger Issues
Although I find this hard to believe, it *may* be possible that some cheaper chargers may produce "non-clean" power and damage the cells while charging.  Intuitively this seems crazy to me, but I don't really know the inner workings of all the chargers out there.  And, if these cells are really this delicate, then maybe there is something here.


Blake

nice report

you pass grade 9 lol

but on another note

trinity is matching the new EP batteries

performance a tad lower than that of IB but better lifespan

imo

No one ever blamed SMC.  I think most of us know that the cells are manufactured by IB and SMC mearly matches them.  With the new battery chemistry and the extremly flakey but powerful low use cells is matching even worth while?  The packs are out of balance after their first or second cycle so why bother?

I certainly hope that the cells being sold are good for at least a single season of racing.  Thats a total of about 30 cycles which is extremely low for this type of battery chemistry (which is typically 500 cycles).  That is a sad fact of competitive racing where racers need to buy batteries at least twice a year now.  Having cells that perform for two three or four cycles is not acceptable - they may as well not be rechargable.

I'm not interested in replacing single cells.  I've had three cells go bad since last week which means I have gone from three working packs of six to none.  I was extremely frustrated running (not racing for sure) the main with a junk battery pack.  I'm not about to waste my time rebuilding "matched" battery packs with unmatched cells just to have to do the same thing the next week when more of the cells continue to fail.  

If these are four cycle "rechargeable" cells we should have been notified of the uselessness of the cells.  Not a single person in the club would have purchased them.  Who cares if they are 2 volts per cell if they don't last more that a few cycles.

How long are we going to have to wait to get replacements?  If this isn't a bad batch of cells and this is the nature of the beast (to get only a few cycles out of the batteries) is SMC going to send us another batch a few weeks later?

If this is normal and there are hundreds of thousands of these cells all over North America IB is going to fold like a deck of cards.  No one but the top racers would use these cells and they are all sponsored.  IB will either have to recall all the cells or go out of business (which may be the case if they need to recall all of them).

If SMC can replace the batteries with GP4300 cells or something reliable I would be interested.  At this point in time I'm not able to run competatively because my batteries are junk.  I'm not interested in wasting time with these IB cells that are unreliable or patching packs with other sketchy cells.  I spent a lot of money on what was supposed to be a quality battery.  If I can't have what I paid for or a suitable replacement I want my money back so I can go and purchace reliable cells and race for the rest of the season.

I applaud SMC for honouring their policy and replacing these cells. However I am with Kurk and don't see how replacing these will really help the racer much. Even if the newer cells were 100% better that would make them good for about 10 runs instead of 5.

I myself will be retiring from electric touring until a proven reliable cell comes out or LiPos are legalized. As you know I have done lots of LiPo testing for a company and believe me, we would not be having this problem. In fact after over 50 cycles the LiPos I have on hand are as good as the freshest, newest IB 4200s. Blake and I both used a SINGLE battery to get through a entire trophy race weekend running Modified Touring. NO NiMH can make that claim. Your batteries would still be nuclear hot before the next round, preventing you from re-charging in time. LiPos come of the charger cool and off the track cool allowing you to recharge them instantly. You also don't have to do discharge maintenance so that even further lowers the time you need to get ready every round. Like I say 1 single battery got me through the whole weekend with time to spare every round. You could glue the battery in your car!!

If you want a list of other advantages that LiPos have come and see me at the track.

Also for the record, a motion was denied to allow LiPos in competition this year in IROCC. Maybe next year??!!, lobby your local IROCC exec member

LiPo or LiMn are club friendly.  There is no reason you couldn't run the batteries for two seasons.  LiPos have at least 100 cycles of near first cycle voltages.  Thats a whole season of racing with one battery and being just as competative voltage wise as you were at the begining of the season.  Who wouldn't rather buy a single LiPo than four NiMh packs.  Unfortunately the main thing that has been holding us back is that they aren't ROAR approved.  Personally I'd rather ignore ROAR and be able to race for a whole season worry free.  Even last year I bought a battery pack for the Speed Weekend just to have a good pack since the NiMH were already to drop off significantly before the middle of the season!

On that note is anyone gonna have batteries to even run at Speed Weekend or will we need to run Frankenstien Packs from 12th scale, etc?

Quote from: "Grinder"I certainly hope that the cells being sold are good for at least a single season of racing.  Thats a total of about 30 cycles which is extremely low for this type of battery chemistry (which is typically 500 cycles).  That is a sad fact of competitive racing where racers need to buy batteries at least twice a year now.  Having cells that perform for two three or four cycles is not acceptable - they may as well not be rechargable.

It is sad, but it is true.  We've been seeing less and less of a cycle life ever since the hobby moved to NiMH.

Quote from: "Grinder"
I'm not interested in replacing single cells.  I've had three cells go bad since last week which means I have gone from three working packs of six to none.  I was extremely frustrated running (not racing for sure) the main with a junk battery pack.  I'm not about to waste my time rebuilding "matched" battery packs with unmatched cells just to have to do the same thing the next week when more of the cells continue to fail.

For sure; No one wants to waste all that time.  But you have to understand from the matcher's perspective that their warranty covers individual cells that are dead.  If you can show a dead cell, they will replace it.  Of course they never figured that they'd have to replace cells in the 50% range... but that's how the warranty works so we have to fit to that unfortunately.

Quote from: "Grinder"
If these are four cycle "rechargeable" cells we should have been notified of the uselessness of the cells.  Not a single person in the club would have purchased them.  Who cares if they are 2 volts per cell if they don't last more that a few cycles.

I firmly believe that SMC would not have sold us these batteries had they known just how short-lived they would be.  The owner of SMC knows our club by name, and he knows that we care only about our club racing.

Quote from: "Grinder"
How long are we going to have to wait to get replacements?  If this isn't a bad batch of cells and this is the nature of the beast (to get only a few cycles out of the batteries) is SMC going to send us another batch a few weeks later?

I'm not yet sure what sort of timeline we're looking at for replacements.  It will likely depend on the number of dead cells we can report.

Quote from: "Grinder"
If this is normal and there are hundreds of thousands of these cells all over North America IB is going to fold like a deck of cards.  No one but the top racers would use these cells and they are all sponsored.  IB will either have to recall all the cells or go out of business (which may be the case if they need to recall all of them).

"hundreds of thousands" was just guess on my part.  I really have no idea what sort of numbers are involved in a "batch" of cells.  Either way, there is a very large market segment that wants high performance first, and cycle life second.  IB has had the reputation for best performance but worst cycle life for a couple of years now.  We learned that last year in November when Frank told us that IB cells were good for one run before losing a large percentage of their voltage, and Haddow confirmed this himself back then when running his trials between NiMH vs. LiPo.  So, in this day and age of low cycle life batteries, I doubt IB will go out of business unless someone else can come along with an equally performing battery with a longer cycle life.  Trust me... I would love it if this happened!


Anyway, I'm not trying to defend SMC, or IB, or anyone else for that matter.  I'm just trying to liaise between us and them, and have each side understand the other.  What seems to have happened with this last batch of IB cells is a HUGE shift toward unacceptable cycle life.  This shift has finally put the batteries over the line with respect to cycle life - especially for the club racer.


Blake

I understand its a tough position for SMC but I want to be made perfectly clear as well.  I'm upset.  I spent a lot of money for something that is broken.  I think I have a right to a working product.  NiMH has a typical cycle life of 500 cycles.  There is nothing to indicate that these are 2, 3 or 4 cycle batteries.  "That's just the way the cells are" isn't acceptable.  As consumers we have certain rights that can be enforced.  We are of course trying to resolve this amicably but I want those who are making the decisions to know what I expect.  I highly doubt I'm the only one who isn't happy having spent so much money on batteries that have failed so quickly.  Five cycles isn't acceptable to almost anyone - even though who seek high performance.  Even Chris wouldn't buy cells for five races.

This isn't a warranty issue where a cell or two in the club has fail - this is a massive amount of failures from a bad batch from the manufacture (not SMC - unfortunately they are stuck in the middle.  However that is the business they are in and they will need to deal with IB.  They should expect the faulty cells to be replaced for them as well).  This is a faulty batch that needs to be recalled.  We have already had exploding cells from this batch.  What do you think would happen in any other comercial application if the cells were exploding?  Not us - it seems to be taken as normal (which it shouldn't be).  The nylon vent on theses cells is a safety device and IB has been pushing those boundries so much that its normal for the cells to vent on the first charge!  Venting is normally a sign of cell failure.  Any other industry would recall (or be forced to recall) the faulty product.  I expect the same.  I'm not trying to be a jerk about it - I'm just standing up for what I think I (and the rest of the club) paid for - working matched batteries.

I don't disagree with you Kurk.  Obviously 500 cycles is going to be tough to get... but it'd sure be nice to get through a season (or at least half a season!).

Since the introduction of NiMH cells many years ago, there has been a slow but sure deterioration in the lifetime of the cells.  Each year a new capacity record is broken, and a new voltage record is broken, and half the cycles are removed from the cell.  The R/C community as a whole just went along with it.  It sucks, but we sort of accepted it and learned to buy new batteries each season (or twice a season).

Now, it seems like we've finally crossed the line between "acceptable" and not-acceptable.  As I said before, had SMC known that this batch was going to cross this line, I believe they would not have sold them to us.  Now that they have however, the best we're probably going to be able to do is have our individual dead cells replaced as per SMC's warranty.


BTW, we're definitely not alone in this.  Here's a couple of interesting threads talking about recent IB cells.  I wish I had read this a couple of months ago:

http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=143531
http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1763&page=44


Blake

why not switch to gp cells?
4300 is way more than you need for 5 min racing neway

Battery capacity isn't the limiting factor that it was years ago.  I couldn't care less if my batteries had any capacity above 3800 mAh or so, given their other current characteristics.  You just can't use more power out of them with current brushed motors.

People want the newer batteries because they can supply more power, not because they have a higher capacity.

My biggest apprehension about a completely different battery chemistry is the very different charging technique.  However, it seems as though many racers have modern chargers that can handle LiPoly, but old-timers like me can't.

If half-decent batteries are well and truly no longer available, I'd have to start supporting something that is.

Many old-timers to this board may remember a hot topic (since deleted from the archives I believe, since I couldn't find it) not long after it started up when I blasted the reliability of NiMH vs. NiCad.  Unfortunately, it turns out I was more right than I wanted to be.  Gone are the days of charging a 1400 at 12 amps for 6 runs in a day for several seasons, and retiring them due to higher capacity batteries being available, not due to performance issues.

Just to add some more fuel..


Integy VESC Super-GP4300 6 Cells 640s+ 1.27V+

$35 US, On back order until July.

I have 4 packs on order, but it doesnt look like they will be here for speed weekend.

Thanks for the RCTech links Blake.
Wow! Talk about due diligence(or lack there of) coming back to haunt us!
Although as you said, we did have an inkling of what "might" happen from the experiences of Frank and the "semi-pro" racers back east and their results after having raced with the IB4200s.
Longevity and reliability are clearly not the strong point of this/these  particular batch(s) of IB4200s!

If this is the supposed quality level that is deemed "acceptable" by the R/C Industry in general, and the battery manufacturers/matchers that send this stuff out the door in particular, then I soundly reject it. I won't continue throwing good money after bad out the window supporting an industry that is obviously selling sub par products just because they can.
The question on my mind is... is the industry knowingly selling sub par products? IROCC's is obviously not an isolated case.
I wouldn't continue eating at the same restaurant if the food sucked, nor would I continue using the same gasoline in my vehicle if it was proven it rotted seals and plugged injectors, so why would I want to experiment with any more IB4200s?

What other options are open to us?
Heck, IF I could, I'd go back and be perfectly happy running 3300s or even the Sanyo 2400 NiCD! At least you knew what you were getting!

The forum Blake linked to RCTech reads almost word for word with what we're  currently experiencing with some, OK, a lot of these IB4200s!

IE:
- Venting of one or more cells in a 6 cell pack on the very first charge.
- 0.00V in one or two cells in a 6 cell pack after just one or two runs.
- issues with cells exploding while charging!
- cells developing partial internal shorts resulting in punch loss.
- cells that are so accurately matched on high end battery matching equipment under ideal conditions suddenly going out of match after only one or two cycles, even when assembly/charging/discharging/storage instructions set out by the supplier are followed, etc., etc.

If this is what we as a bunch of "Club Racers" are expected to accept as being OK, then I think it's time that we re-evaluate our choices.

Having read our discussion and portions of the discussion on RCTech, and   I'm sure if one was to search, one could easily find dozens of threads around the net discussing this very same battery issue.
This leads me to think that this world wide issue with the IB4200s must have been brought to the attention of the battery manufacturer and the various matchers around the globe some time ago. There's no way that they couldn't have known that these IB4200s weren't up to specification... right? I mean, some of the guys in the "Industry" actually have to race this stuff too! Surely they must agree that a life expectancy of a "computer matched" pack should be more than 2 or 3 , or if you're really lucky, 4 or 5 cycles before either developing internal short circuits or out right open circuits is unacceptable.

I for one look forward to these unfortunate battery issues being made right as quickly as humanly possible.

Regards,
Nick

Hi, All.

Quite frankly, I am surprised there hasn't been collective action in the US in order to protect the interests of the consumer. The burden on matchers must be huge.

Similar to Craig I have experienced massive failure and of the 8 Packs I have, I have been able to salvage three that are not separated by more than 4 minutes of discharge time per cell using the methods suggested in this thread.  This week I have a couple of packs of the East Power 4200s arriving (EP4200). These are the ones that Trinity has just partnered with EP to put on the market (North American Distributor) as a response to this issue. Apparently the team matched packs are ranging in the 1.218-1.222 area and IR is still good at 1.6-1.7, 445-460 sec @ 35A. This lower voltage (for our purposes anyway) I anticipate as negligible, and the punch will still be there via the IR, but most importantly, there is apparently the benefit of longevity ... and ... they are coming in slightly lower in price. Unfortunately no care instructions are yet available but apparently they are managed similar to the IBs.

My final word on this matter is that money talks and walks. It's my hard earned money and your hard earned money and no rationale or words assuage the frustration felt by this. And I spend it where I like and of course, expect value in return. The reasonable expectation of the Intellect value proposition is compromised in this instance since no one knowingly purchased one-run (or four-run as the case may be) wonders. I won't experiment with IBs any more, personally, and seek an alternative. I have been offered some GP4300s and the new 4600s to test but the provider says that the numbers are very soft indeed and perhaps reserved for brushless if LiPo is not sanctioned at a particular event. The longer run time is also extending the discharge curve, so there is an illusion of higher voltage for racing which simply doesn't appear useful in the five min timeframe used for racing. Besides which, they're not endorsed at the 4600 capacity in areas where we race.

So, if anyone is interested, I'll be sure to let you know what my experience is and how the batteries perform, and how they hold up under heavy use. We all love the hobby so much that we seek alternatives for sure, and for me, not racing is not an option, but neither is throwing good money after bad. In our case, I feel bad on two fronts: that everyone has put so much of their hard won money into such a poor cell; and that well-intentioned, unwitting matchers carry this burden as the market reacts. The propaganda mills and industry rags that tout and flout this stuff should feel ashamed.

Phil

Its also hard to imagine that SMC who matches these cells didn't notice an alarming increase in failed cells in the matching process itself.  This issue with this batch of bad cells has been an issue for more than the last few weeks that we've been struggling with them. Regardless SMC continues to put these cells on the market knowing there is an issue with them (search the Net - there are countless threads on the issues with the IB cells including the dates).  Quality control would appear to be non existant or SMC chooses to ignore it.  So far SMC has been strangely silent and have only offered to replace cells that have already failed leaving us with the same bad cells which continue to fail as the weeks progress.  We paid for matched packs and SMC is failing to provide us with that.  

Will SMC be supplying us with weekly replacements for theses cells?  I'm not interested in building packs weekly and testing cells.  My time is precious and so is my racing.  I'm not interested in more frustration from cells quiting in the middle of a race.

Phil you are right.  Money talks.  I spend at least $500 a year on cells and the club must spend well over $10,000 a year.  If SMC doesn't resolve this in a satisfactory manor I'm happy to spend my money elsewhere.  We've supported them for years and it would seem appropriate for them to provide some sort of customer support in return.

So SMC will you provide us with a suitable alternative cell or refund our money?  Or will you take the easy road out and try to replace only the failed cells while we continue to have failures throught the season from this bad batch of batteries?  Replacing the failed cells will only continue the frustration of the racers in the club as these cells continue to fail.

(http://www.jamrowls.com/gallery2/d/1327-2/Cells.jpg)

Now What?????

btw, nice picture there phil, i guess i should not leave the battery unattended when charging.

Quote from: "SgRddY"Now What?????

btw, nice picture there phil, i guess i should not leave the battery unattended when charging.

shouldnt leave any battery unattended.

Quote from: "haddow"

Quote from: "SgRddY"Now What?????

btw, nice picture there phil, i guess i should not leave the battery unattended when charging.

shouldnt leave any battery unattended.

.... except for Thermo Nuclear batterys - best to leave them unattended - and as far away as possible...

It happens,

@ Vegas this year a battery blew up in the pits  ( no it was not a IB, it can happen to all of them) and man was it loud............... Sounded like a shotgun going off, and everyone ducked.

With that said, I have been reading everyones responses and have been communicating with Danny about the subject.

Once I hear back from Blake, Danny will decided what to do about it.

Thanks

Korgae

Thanks Korgae.

IROCCers, feel free to PM me your bad cell counts so I can compile the info and get a preliminary number to Korgae.


Blake

PS.  Frank told us a scary story of an exploding GP3300 cell that came out of the can like a shotgun shell and embedded itself in a wall 50 feet away.  He now "aims" his packs away from the body while charging.  Scary stuff.

i dont now if i have any bad cells in my packs,is there someone i can drop them off to that can test them for me.??

You should test em on the track.  We've been missing you out there!

Blake

I'll suggest what no one else will .TOTAL replacement of ALL cells!These batteries have sucked .Who can tear apart a pack and wait for replacement cells (not racing while you wait).Once again it seems we are left holding an empty bag while someone else is hording all the club members money.I can't even afford the batteries I have now, let alone purchacing something else,I've always trusted the quality of the batteries we've gotten in the past ,so this is such a disappointment.For weeks I've been struggling with my car ,and never once did I question the batteries.I went from being a regular in the 'A' to barly making the 'B' . Thank GOD it's not all in my driving.

I'm feeling like SMC isn't really interested in resolving this issue for us.  There has been no response to our concerns.  I guess the club  members just flushed $8000 down the toilet in bad cells.  Its too bad the clubs biggest race of the year is coming up in less than a week and most of the packs have failed - should be interesting.

Haven't heard a thing back from Danny - should we post this issue on RCTech net to get some sort of reply?  The summer is wasting away here....

Blake

PS.  Frank told us a scary story of an exploding GP3300 cell that came out of the can like a shotgun shell and embedded itself in a wall 50 feet away.  He now "aims" his packs away from the body while charging.  Scary stuff.[/quote]


Yeah it happened at the Calgary last year.  that was from a guy dead shorting a pack that he though was already discharged.  guess what it was fully charged.  and yes it did sound like a shotgun going off.

Serves him right -- you should NEVER dead short a NiMH cell (or battery).  NiCad is the only chemistry that can tolerate this, in general.

GP NiMH 3300 seemed to tolerate this, but that is a major exception to the rule.

Quote from: "Grinder"I'm feeling like SMC isn't really interested in resolving this issue for us.  There has been no response to our concerns.  I guess the club  members just flushed $8000 down the toilet in bad cells.  Its too bad the clubs biggest race of the year is coming up in less than a week and most of the packs have failed - should be interesting.

Haven't heard a thing back from Danny - should we post this issue on RCTech net to get some sort of reply?  The summer is wasting away here....

Fellas, I have been talking to Korgae, and he has been talking to Danny.  They are more than aware of the issue, and they want to help us through it.  To this end,  I'm still gathering bad-cell counts from you all, but not everyone has submitted them to me yet.  Please do this as quickly as possible.

So far, the counts I've received do not look too bad (20% failure rates) but I have not heard from some of the people I know have had the most problems.


Thanks,
Blake

i dont need replacements, i am done with NiMH.

I personally tossed my two SMC packs and have moved away from Intellect.

Quote from: "Blake"So far, the counts I've received do not look too bad (20% failure rates)

20% is more than one cell in every pack... that aint too bad?, LOL, ROTFL, OMGAYK?

for the record I would have requested 5 cells total from 2 packs. (I bought 3 packs)

I have one pack that feels good on the track but two cells still die way before the others when discharged fully, the good thing is the two crappy cells still last just over 5 minutes with a stock motor. I would not have requested replacements for this pack, just so I didnt have to rebuild it.

I seem to only use up less than 2500 mAh in 5 minutes of stock touring. ( I "leave too much on the table" so to speak). How do the big guns at the big races dump in stock class (with good batteries)? I wish I could do that.

For the last time....

The batteries are garbage. They only last for a few charges if that.  We are not interested in any more of these junk cells.  I'm not interested in rebuilding packs each week as the cells continue to fail. I have no packs left that don't have at least one bad cell in it (last time I checked - likely more now as the trend continues).

Club members have had failed cells in the past and never ask to have them replaced.  We have provided tens of thousands of dollars in purchases of SMC batteries in the past.  We are now asking SMC to stand up and support us.  Will you take back your faulty cells and give us a suitable replacement?  More of the same cells is not acceptable.  Alternatively will you refund our money for these faulty cells?

Can you answer this simple question or not?  I expect an answer promtly or we'll assume you are skirting the issue and I will try and get satisfaction elsewhere.

This is an ongoing.  This problem was know well before the club made the purchase.  One of the Main reason why I didn't purchase any.  I knew of the problem ahead of time. I'm still using my packs from last year.  with two new packs purchased at the beginning of the season.  Been waiting on a matcher to get new cell.  I won't have them till after speed weekend.  The don't have the voltage but are much more stable.  I'm even looking into another brand to give them a shot.  As there very reasonable in price and don't have the problems both the IB and GP are having(yes there is a problem with one of the newer batches of GP 4300)

If your wondering why I didn't mentioned anything,  Well there...  No body asked. I would figure other would notice.

My only sudjestion why not allow Lipo.  Big deal there not roar approved.  lower the weight limit abit.  and allow them.  Why wait for everyone to jump and then follow.  When we can lead.  I'm not saying this cause I want to run lipo.(I can't rigth now) but the future is heading that way.

i think that theres a couple reasons why we dont run lipo.

1 there are many packs with huge mah , most all look the same no matter the capacity, so ther would be a giant difference between the races,

2 some cars cant phisycally run lipo bateries, so alot of people need to get a newer chassis,

3, im not shure on this, but can you runa lipo batery on a regular esc?

then theres the actual cost of the bateries and the special chargers. which there would then be 50+ chargers here that nobody could sell?

i dont hate lipos, but i couldnt continue to race if we switched..


if im wrong on this let me know,

my .02

Hopefully we'll get an answer in the near future as to what their intentios are.

http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3456513

Quotei think that theres a couple reasons why we dont run lipo.

1 there are many packs with huge mah , most all look the same no matter the capacity, so ther would be a giant difference between the races,

2 some cars cant phisycally run lipo bateries, so alot of people need to get a newer chassis,

3, im not shure on this, but can you runa lipo batery on a regular esc?

then theres the actual cost of the bateries and the special chargers. which there would then be 50+ chargers here that nobody could sell?

i dont hate lipos, but i couldnt continue to race if we switched..


if im wrong on this let me know,

my .02

1 lipo batterys have huge capacity but most lipo packs you would run are around 4500 mah, there are company's matching 4500s allready

2 the only cars that i know of that cant run lipo are the t2 06 and tamiya 415 msx
what other ones cant


3 lipo can be ran on any esc. it has the same voltage as a 6 cell pack
just watch the speed and punch of the car



why dont we run lipo

just SPEC CHECK it

like only duralite and orion lipo

if its goodenough for tamiya championship series its good enough for us

my $.25

matt

Any chassis like the xray 04 which uses a saddle pack.  

Hey I was not saying to completly go lipo.  I was just saying that why don't we run both together.  

I do know that Orion is has a proto.  of a saddle lipo pack in development. But is not planning on releasing it soon as there is not enough of a demand for it yet.

Just to clear any misconceptions up...

LiPo (or LiMn) cells will run on any ESC but you need to ensure that you don't over discharge the cells.  The newer ESCs will detect low voltage and cut off power to the motor.  There are add ons you can use if your ESC doesn't have LVC (low voltage cutoff).  For racing this isn't really necessary as you just need to recharge after your race.  You really only need one battery pack for the whole season (25 race days x 4 cycles = 100 total cycles) as opposed to a few races where NiMh drops off.

There are packs that should fit in any car.  The Duralite 4900 mAh cells work fine in my '04 with no modifications.  You can also get LiPo saddle packs from MaxAmps.

The discharge curve at 30A on my LiMn 3800 mAh pack is virtually identical (the graph all but overlaps) to a brand spanking new set of IB 4200 (before they gave up the ghost).  I propose that these would be a suitable replacement as they are identical to the IBs in voltage/current and they will last an entire season.

LiPo don't require discharge trays or any maintainance - just charge and go.  Most chargers will charge LiPo (unless you have a 20 year old HiIQ charger of course).  The rest of the industry has all but dropped NiMh and has gone Lithium.  Can you imagine running your cell phone or I-Pod on NiMh?

I talked to the owner of Duralite and he said he would sell the club the TrakPower 4900 mAh packs for $110 per pack.  That would last us an entire season of racing and he will stand behind his product  100%  He also has chargers and balancers if anyone needs them and will also sell those at a discounted price to the club.  This by no means means that we need to buy our cells from him as there are plenty of other manufactures out there.

I'm just tired of going week after week fighting batteries instead of racing....

Well why don't we have a a general meeting with the whole club.  I would like to see that, then let it be in the hands of the exc.  I have no problems with the desision they have made I just think This is a major move and would like to see what everyone has to think about this idea.

To bad they still don't have lipo for 12 scale yet.

(http://www.irocc.ca/stories/2007/xray04-lipo.jpg)

the battery just touches the belt in one spot at the very edge. It would work perfectly fine and although it looks weird I dont think the weight distribution would be bad at all.

Also as saddle packs have been mentioned here is how I turned 1 pack into a saddle pack for my pan car. I just split the two cells apart (carefully) and made tabs for soldering etc.

(http://www.irocc.ca/stories/2007/saddle3.jpg)

(http://www.irocc.ca/stories/2007/saddle2.jpg)

(http://www.irocc.ca/stories/2007/saddle1.jpg)

Keep fighting the good fight Kurk!

I for one am finished with these extremely unreliable IB4200 NiMH cells!  I refuse to spend good money after bad on junk!

When the rest of my IB4200 cells die, and we all know they will, that will be the the last time I support a manufacture that absolutely HAD to know they had a faulty product in the pipeline, yet kept right on selling it to their unsuspecting customers! I hold the various battery matchers to task as well, they MUST have seen a much higher failure rate than normal for these IB4200 cells when they were in the process of matching them.
I wonder, did they send them back to IB and receive replacement cells?

Bring on the 21st century... bring on the LiPo!

I'd try the saddle back lipos in my 04 X-Ray tomorrow if I could!
I'm more than ready to embrace them for our Club's racing purposes "IF"  they turn out to be as bullet proof as people claim.

Lipos have certainly showed well in the electric R/C aircraft hobby.
I would hope it isn't too long until the R/C car hobby and the sanctioning bodies adopt lipos too.
But having said that, I'm afraid we might have too much of an "Old Boys Club" in place to allow change to happen very quickly!

I don't think this warrents a general meeting.  Express your concerns and desires on the web page and argue your case and the Executive will make a decision that is most benificial to the entire club.  They haven't failed us yet.

it might be a little too late to talk about lipo for this summer as i (we) already spent our cash on the IB's.  and i want to make full use of it for the season.  going head to head with the guys running lipo and the ones running nimh cells there could be a huge disadvantage.  i am in for lipo next year.  so much cheaper and with a lot less gears to carry around for discharging and all.

There is NO difference in performance with the LiMn 3800 and the newest IB 4200 batteries so no one would be at an advantage.  While you may have working battery packs many of us do not.  I would also like to race with the $360 worth of useless batteries I have.  Last race the last of my batteries packed it in and I'm not willing to waste any more money on these junk cells.  I don't want to buy more batteries but week after week is passing by and my thousands of dollars in race gear is held captive.  So what are those of us who bought club packs that don't work suppose to do?

I'm not suggesting to run LiPo because they are niffty but because many of us are in a real crunch and unable to race and we need an alternative to let us continue to race.

i do have 2 bad cells in one pack and 1 bad cell in the other.  my packs are not perfect either.  i think the club has few extra packs, maybe they can split them up and replace our bad cells while we wait for the replacement cells to come.  i know it's not perfect but it would get us going for now.  and if there is no difference in performance then i don't really care what kind of packs ppl want to run.  put a hydrogen power plant on there for all i care if they have the same power output and weight :)

Quote from: "Grinder"I'm not suggesting to run LiPo because they are niffty but because many of us are in a real crunch and unable to race and we need an alternative to let us continue to race.

Well, to those who don't already have LiPo batteries and chargers lying around, they are nifty.  There are apparently lots of people in a crunch that don't have LiPo as an alternative at the moment.

To say that we can start running LiPo right now is unfair to those who haven't experimented with this different battery type.  To continue with the status quo is problematic as well, since a number of people in our club have bought crappy batteries in a group buy.

I can't support the idea of running LiPo for our Speed Weekend race, since I don't know enough about real-world performance advantages of one type over another, and mostly because this would be a last-second rule change to an invitational race, which is not a good thing to do.

Let's not try to rush to hasty decisions in the next couple days, even though lots of racers have bought junk.

you can put a stick pack and a lipo pack in the 04 xray

with the stickpack kit

Quote from: "Grinder"Just to clear any misconceptions up...

Most chargers will charge LiPo (unless you have a 20 year old HiIQ charger of course).  

i have a friend in calgary area who modified his hi-iq to charge AND balance lipo

As a member of the executive, I still would not endorse the use of Lipo or any other lithium based battery. If we were only club racing, then maybe that is OK. But what happens when we want to go on a roadtrip to race. If the club running the race(eg. Kamloops) does not allow the lipos then that means anybody interested in racing outside our club would either not be able to race or would have to purchase some other type of battery suitable to the host club. Now we are doubling or tripleing our battery costs.
I am not happy with the current situation either because out of the last 28 cells I purchased, I have 12 that are completely gone and probably at least 2 more that probably won't last the weekend.

So were would someone looking to buy some new cells go? I might want to get a few packs.

Gord, I still have some packs left, but as you can tell from this thread they aren't exactly the most reliable.

get a lipo and run open mod, lipos are legal in open mod (7.4 volt max is the rule). (for the record lipos were legal when we travelled to Kamloops to race in mod last winter).

Oh, and run Nitro too of course (with a lipo receiver pack, also legal)

peace

cya in nitro and open mod

WOW!
I guess I am happy I decided to run just Nitro this year  8O

So our 25 or so races in Touring Car should be dictated by a race or two that some members of the club may attend?  I'd rather be able to race for the rest of the summer than go away to a single race.

I agree that there shouldn't be any change in battery chemisty for the Speed Weekend even if it means I can't race.  I do think we need to address this issue as most of the club is affected.  SMC isn't helping out here and we need to come up with a solution.  This isn't a hasty decision for those of us who have had battery problems for over a month now.

The problem Ken in replacing cells is that they continue to fail.  I may have a pack with one duff cell and racing you with three bad cells - doesn't make for much of a race.

I've sent an E-Mail to Danny directly as he hasn't bothered to respond to the post on his thread at RCTech.net  Odd since most manufactures watch these forums like hawks not to mention the feedback they get from their cronies....

So the word on the street is that we need to dead short the cells to bring them back to life.  To do this make sure the pack is completely discharged in a discharge tray.  The tray and the pack should be at room temperature at the end of the discharge before I would even think about shorting.  I personally take a multi meter and measure the voltage on each cell while its in the tray.  If its 0.0xx volts then there the cell is only putting out 1/100ths of a volt and they are ok to short out.  Make sure you measure across the entire pack as well as a double check.  Sometimes a cell isn't connected to certain discharge trays and then it doesn't get discharged properly.  Make sure each bulb is lit, etc to verify that you have a good connection.

I ran a couple of packs that sat in the tray overnight and they didn't dump hard but I was running in 19T so its a little harder to tell if they were up to snuff.  Running stock and some discharge graphs will tell the true tale as I have a baseline for all my packs.  I also didn't give them a true short so I will do that to make sure they get a fair shake.  I'll post the results here.  Full discharge did make a difference so lets see if it brings them back.

Kurk,  that is a very interesting find(word on the street.) Please keep up informed on your findings.  I know from the 3300 that dead shorting was okay for them.  but you lose some run time due to it.  With 4200 we can afford to lose a bit of run time if the volt is still good.  

again nice find.

I'm still in the middle of testing the cells.  It looks like dead shorting is reviving the dead cells but the average voltage has dropped.  I'm doing more testing before I say either way for sure though.

For the LiMn packs which have virtually identical discharge curves at 30 amps of the IB4200.  I found some for super cheap at    Zebra Hobby (http://www.zebrahobby.ca/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?usr=51F6361555&rnd=3703673&rrc=N&affl=&cip=131.137.245.200&act=&aff=&pg=prod&ref=Magnum3800-2S&cat=blithium&catstr=HOME:blithium)

Thats about the wholesale cost of two of the cells without them being built into a pack - not sure why these are so cheap!  These would be great for bashing as well if you've got another R/C vehicle or even practice night, etc if you don't want to wear out your NiMH packs as these will give you race condition charges for 100 cycles or more.
 
Apogee LiMn Magnum 3800 mAh 20C 2S1P 7.4V
Apogee Lithium Manganese batteries are specially engineered for the 1/10 scale car market.
High-Output Lithium Manganese Technology
Max Continuous Discharge: 20.0C / 76.0 Amps
Pack Dimensions (LWH mm): 139 x 42 x 19
Weight (w/connector): 236 g
13 guage silicon wire with Tamiya Connector


Regularly: $110.25
On Sale: $44.25

so what is the chemistry behind a dead short relieving an internal resistance problem?

Drum roll please.... the results are in....

(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k41/_Grinder_/SP32-20070712-222551.gif)

I've used pack 5c as the baseline since this is a curve from the original packs.  As you can see only one pack came back to where it should be - pack 10.  Pack 7 came back with close to the same run time but the voltage is significantly reduced.  The rest of the packs have both reduced run time and reduced voltage.

Dead shorting the cells has brought the dead cells back but the performance and run time have been significantly comprimised.  The difference in run time between cells is 300 mAh in the worst case so they are essentially performing the same now.  The problem now is that ALL the batteries in the packs are significantly reduced in voltage and run time with some packs being worse than others.  For myself I had six useless packs and now I have one good one two that are good for practice but not competative racing and three that have very poor performance.

So what is the next step SMC?

Oh and I should note that all the packs have virtually the same numbers so one would expect all the graphs should be overlaping each other normally.

Quote from: "Grinder"So what is the next step SMC?

LiPo

Dead short 4200 batteries that have blow up into a million peaces.

I am also just going Nitro this weekend and are we running pan?

8)

Does anyone have Korage's E-Mail address?  He isn't responding here and Danny is replying to his e-mails either.

click the email button on any post he has made here on this site.

Jody

i got it

let me find it

under the FYI category:


t-bang currently has a special on batteries as a summer promo.

I've e-mailed Korgae and Danny again as they haven't bothered to respond to my (or others) e-mails.  It looking like the batteries are a write off since these guys aren't stepping up to the plate....

Hey all,


Danny is working on it for us.  I conversed with him yesterday.  I can't give a timeline just yet unfortunately, but the wheels are in motion.  I can't say for sure just yet, but it looks like SMC will replace all the dead cells that people reported to me over the last three weeks.


Blake

blake,

i since then have a couple more dead cells.  am i able to get those replaced also?

thanks,

Ken, I will see what I can do.

Blake

Jody is using a bunch of my DEAD SMC IB 4200 cells in his Pan car as ballast! LOL

As far as the tale of the other DEAD cells, I didn't even bother to add them to the "Official" report, as I figured my first couple of posts on the subject of DEAD and DYING SMC IB 4200's would have been more than enough of a heads up that I too have had SMC IB 4200 battery issues!

IF SMC/IB is only planning on replacing these problematic IB 4200's with more IB 4200's, I for one am not interested in replacing old junk with new junk!

Bring on the LiPos, I've had enough of the "Industry" pushing the limits of old technology, and failing!

so nick , are you saying ud rather run your known to be dead packs for the rest of the summer, than run packs which may not be matched aswell asthe new pack you baught at the beggining of the season, but have 6 decent-good cells??

i dont get why you guys are saying you dont want replacement cells even tho you rant on, saying that all your packs are now junk. you rather complain and whine than be able to have decent/raceable packs??

c'mon

just my .02

ummm, where would these decent racebale packs come from?

Jarrod,

I find it funny you didn't mention anything about this to me at practice last night. Apparently you have an issue with what I have to say in regards to My choice as to what I want to do with My batteries!

If you can't understand the point I'm making, let me spell it out for you.

I don't want to rebuild already weak and getting weaker by the week IB 4200 battery packs with one or two new cells in the hopes that miraculously they will come back to life! Believe me, replacing one or two cells in a bad battery pack won't make it able to walk on water!

I've already made up "Frankenpacks" out of all my SMC IB4200s just to be able to come out and play every weekend.
I had 5 packs that I assumed worked, 2 of which were BRAND NEW, now I have only 4 packs that still "sorta" work!
The weak and dying cells that already make up my remaining packs will quickly kill off any advantage a couple of new cells might bring!
Using my discharge tray shows me plain as day which cells are dropping off long before the others.

It's like having a worn out motor in your daily driver.
You can throw valve seals on it and hope to stop some of the smoking,  but just because you put valve seals on the worn out valve guides doesn't mean the motor is going to stop smoking or run much better, or more to the point, it  doesn't change the fact that the motor is still worn out!

Here's another example.
It's kinda like doing a half ass job of building a new motor. Because someone didn't measure everything accurately first off, or they didn't fit new rod and main bolts, or didn't check the clearance of the bearings and the crankshaft, or didn't check the end gap of their piston rings, they only get to drive with it for a short time before something goes wrong and they end up having to pull it out and rebuild it all over again! This time properly and with a lot more care and attention to detail.

Do you get my point about micky mousing battery packs yet?

actually i did  ask you why u didnt want to just get the replacement cells at the end of practice but i didnt want to start anything., but i i do see your point.

but a new cell in place of a dead one will make the pack better for the time being.?..no?

Just a  FYI as I have not seen Blake post yet today.

Blake has provided the specs of the batteries and SMC is  currently picking cells out of the current batch.

The current batch from IB is also more stable then any previous batch of the latest version. Danny has been testing these for a few weeks and so far they do not "self discharge" as fast as any of the previous batches.

Believe me when we heard of the problem with the club we tore a strip off of IB. We understand that IB crossed the line with reliability and performance and SMC's reputation is taking a hit for it.

Please keep in mind that the cells really do not stay at SMC to long, they basically get shipped from IB to SMC in a matter of days, via airfreight, raw cells then ship out to matchers that have purchase orders in with SMC for raw cells ( Pro-match, EA, TQ etc etc) basically all the matchers buy the raw cells from us  and they want them as fast as possible. What we keep for stock ( or is left over) starts our own production of SMC matched cells. (  ZAPP, cycle, weed, cycle, weed, Cycle weed Final cycle and finally charge for storage then matching and boxing followed by shipping to the distributors of the world. The total amount of time that any cell really stays in the SMC area is probably no more then 2 weeks. Within this period the cell is charged 4-5 times which keep them fresh.

The market demands fast turn around and the way the manufacture creates the cells their is no way to really stock pile the cells.

When SMC weeds a cell they look for the following:

False peaks
Low voltage
Low runtime
High AIR ( internal resistance)
leaking  and or venting.


This ensures the customer receives a "fresh cell" Which has been what the consumer has demanded for years.

As IB changed the chemistry and raised the bar for overall performance but decreased the robust nature of the cell we are were we are now, asking IB to change back and now offer the consumer a cell that has slightly less voltage and more reliability.

SMC has learned from this as well, and this takes me back to my opening paragraph. Danny is now requesting samples from each production batch that they plan to send to us so Danny can judge the cell in a longer time period.  This gives Danny more insight into each batch and can approve them before the order is completed and shipped. He also have been letting other matchers know what is coming as well for their feed back and opinion. This will create some time gaps that cells will not be available or racers will have to wait, but overall we hope this will improve the overall reliability of the cells.

As mentioned before our policy has been to send out new replacement cells for any cell that has failed from the time span it has taken to get the end user. Good cells don't really go bad..... bad cells go bad....... every cell will deteriorate as they are used, but good cells wont go bad.. So adding a new cell to replace the bad cell will put the pack back in good form. ( it wont be a like a new pack, but it will be better) Basically it is like  a chain link, the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. The cells in the packs that you all have that are still kicking are good cells, and adding a new cell will make the pack run better.

Same as dead shorting, as I mentioned to the racers I had the opportunity to speak to @ Speed-weekend, we have found that this does help and kick starts the dead cells. Over time, dead shorting does start to improve the performance of the pack. Will it increase runtime- Yes a bit- will it increase voltage- yes will it return the pack to the state it was in when it was new?- No.  but overall it will work for a pack that has had issues and make that pack useable.

When I cycled a few of the packs on Speed Weekend, they were in the 380 range @ 35 amps. This is lower then the runtime stated on the label, but it still high enough to compete and is somewhat normal for a pack that is at the mid point of the season In stock and 19 turn. in fact 2 years ago we made runtime in mod with 7 turns when we only have 330 seconds to deal with.... ( O how times change)  We are not going to please the people that expect to have the packs returned to "as new" state but we hope to please the people that were experiencing poor voltage and lack of punch with replacing these cells with new ones.

Going forward, SMC appreciate the business and support you all have given us over the years and we are sorry that these IB cells have wrecked the season for some racers. When it comes right down to it, SMC is built around racing and consumers like yourself and we will take from this and learn from it to continue to offer the best possible product we can.

[/u]

I've asked Korgae where the replacement cells are.  Apperently Danny is picking them out for us.  I've asked for some rough estimate as to when they will arrive but I've gotten the typical no reponse (in spite of the jumping up and down hand gesturing that the only way to resolve this is through communication directly with them - sigh).  Basically your guess is as good as mine but considering this thread alone was almost two months ago I wouldn't hold your breath.

u missed it kirk i had a pack explode it was crazy saw my life flash before my eyes and kens.lol

The first cell to blow up missed my head by inches.I was covered with battery guts .All I saw was Ken running like a scared school girl.haha

Quote from: "gotnitro"u missed it kirk i had a pack explode it was crazy saw my life flash before my eyes and kens.lol

NiMH are unsafe when they explode, try LiPo.

dude u have no idea this could have blown up my truck.People said they found debris at the driver stand.

Didn't you know "venting" is normal with these cells ;P   Oh and let me guess you weren't charging with a GFX charger?  The GFX only puts the non-exploding electrons into the battery and is 100% cholesterol free!

The first charge should have been an indication of things to come.  "If minor leaking (venting) occurs the cell will still produce the same performance so we recommend you try the pack on the track to make sure it performs like it should.  If you feel it isn't performing well then please contact us."  So there you have it straight from the note included with your SMC packs - you were warned that some "minor" venting may occur.  How many packs do you have?  I mean they all didn't explode did they?  Since you still have unexploded cells this is considered "minor".  If all the cells in all the packs exploded at the same time it would be "more than minor".  Of course "if you feel it isn't performing well then please contact us" <roll eyes>

WOW, looks like I've missed some excitement lately!

It's OK guys, You'll receive brand new SMC IB4200 cells to replace the ones that just about took your head off!
Just clean off the gunk from the cells that didn't explode(YET!!) and make up a new pack with all of those new SMC IB4200 cells we're all going to receive from Korgae(sometime soon?) and you'll have a half decent pack to go racing with again!

NOT!!

What an absolute farce!
I'm surprised that no one has lost an eye or suffered any really serious injury because of these POS SMC IB4200 cells! Maybe there has been some serious injuries elsewhere and we just haven't heard about it... yet!

As I've stated before, I'm done with IB's! They're just too unstable, and obviously they're getting to the point where they are very dangerous.
It's gotten beyond the point of just EXTREMELY poor performance with one or two cells in a 6 cell pack going dead, these IB4200 cells have shown the potential to cause serious injury or even death!

Had this pack that exploded been dead shorted as Korgae has suggested we do to all of our POS SMC IB4200 packs?

I was just wondering what rate you are charging your packs at?

Shawn.

Hey Guys,

I've been watching this thread with concern for both sides in the equation. As you know, my company sold IB4200 cells as well, and we experienced all of the same issues as SMC has with the IB4200's. It's definitely not cool for either the matchers and the customers and it's a very awkward situation to deal with because the blame is tough to assign to any one person on the chain other than Intellect themselves. However, they are at least two levels removed from the end user, and the cells have been Zapped, cycled, torture-tested, etc. by an intermediate before hitting retail.

After reading about the popping cells, there are a couple of safety tips I'd like to pass along from my experiences in servicing these cells:

- If you have a pack with weak cells, or cells that have 0v'ed themselves in the past, you need to careful when charging them. The change in chemistry and structure on the affected cells may cause them to charge/peak/heat up faster than the remaining healthy cells in the pack. If you are running a charger with a temp sensor - clip it to the questionable cells for cut-off because they are likely to be the culprits.

- Deadshorting, cycling, and other forms of voodoo did not revive cells or packs that we had that were not performing well. The only sure fire fix is to replace any bad cells with a good cell. Voodoo will probably only make things less stable. Leave the good cells alone, and swap in the replacements you get from SMC. Don't forget to keep the packs topped up even if they are in storage waiting for repairs or you may have problems.

Two years ago, I caught a pack of exploding cells right in the face while race directing in Abbotsford. It's a bit scary, so now I'm hyper sensitive with that stuff. It's really not going to kill your performance that badly to turn down your peak detect and temp cutoff a bit too in order to keep things real. I personally stop the charge once I hear any excessive gurgling, clicking, popping etc. and give the batts a rest before peaking them or just run them like that.

That said - a number of packs that we had problems with were treated 100% by the book, so it's nobody's fault in most cases, just a freak failure or something that has been brewing invisibly inside the cell for a while.

T

Good points Mr T.  

I have data to show that if you dead short the bad cells it typically revives them but the good cells in the pack are adversely affected.  Overall voltage on the cell and run time on the good cells is reduced.  Like you said dead shorting is voodoo.  Of course others who claimed it was voodoo turned around and said it would revive the cells.  Didn't mention it would reduce the voltage on the good cells though....  regardless its the only option for many of us while we wait <roll eyes again> on our replacement cells for the ones that have been bad since what - mid April?

Use your thermal protection!  I avoided explosion on some borrowed packs that went to overtemp and the charger happily discontinued charging them.  Two packs were like this for me and had every potential to have exploded in my garage.

Keeping a charge on these cells is critical.  The recomendation by SMC is not enough to keep these cells out of trouble - I would recomend if you have good packs to not discharge them after a race to keep 1000 mAh or more in the packs while in storage for the week.  These cells have an extremely high self discharge rate.  Balance the cells down before you charge them (day before is fine).

On that note the EP cells I've used from Trent have been excellent and have yet to let me down in a race.  I highly recomend them.  I have one pack that I've been abusing the heck out of since its my only good pack now.  I also know Trent will stand behind his product (and promptly at that).  Trent didn't mention it but I know some of his customers had issues with the IBs he sold and he made sure his clients were taken care of.  Of course he quickly dumped the IB line and went to the EPs.  Consider this my Trent plug.  Good customer service deserves credit.

Yeah we all had lots of problems with the IB's. As I said, I sincerely appreciate how difficult it is to keep those cells in service for both the matchers and the customers. It's not just a SMC thing at all.

There have been recent revisions to the cells, but only time will tell if they make the needed corrections to be reliable.

On my personal IB packs, I actually have gone to a routine of 900s at 6.0A for storage (about 1500mah) and I have to say that I've probably had slightly less trouble with my own cells than many other people, but cells will still blink out of existence here and there.

With 1500mah in there, you may find cells close to the brink if they've been in the box for a couple of weeks, but that seems to be enough to be able to store them for a reasonable time period.

Good luck. Be safe. That's the main thing. They are just batteries.

Hey all,

The replacement cells arrived today.  I will hand them out at the track on Sunday.

Blake

YAY

Wow.  Not to bring up an old thread but I just noticed looking back for another post that this thread had over 5000 hits!  That's pretty amazing - cool to see that kind of traffic here.

....and the end of the sad tale is we have moved to LiPo technology (finally - following what the bashers have been using for years and the Airplane guys for years before the bashers).  As Matt would say "Whoot Whoot!"

Its nice to see too that we weren't out to lunch or the only ones with the problem as the truth usually rises to the surface eventually in spite of any BS screens put up to obscure it.

Quote from: "Grinder"As Matt would say "Whoot Whoot!"

you mean w00t w00t