Hi all,
The IROCC Executive has met and come to some decisions about this coming 12th Scale season. Most of the decisions were straight-forward, and there are no ground breaking rule changes to mention. However, there is one tough decision to make: 12th Scale motor options.
After much discussion on the topic, the Executive has decided to hold a general club opinion pole on the topic to make sure we make the best decision for the club. We hope that everyone planning to run this winter will take the time to think about these three options and vote for the best one.
Here are the three options:
A. Handout Club Motor
In this scenario, IROCC will bulk-buy a lot of motors, and sell them to the club members. These motors will be the only motors allowed for the 2008/2009 indoor season. All club members will be expected to buy these motors, as you will not be allowed to use any other motor. If you already own an existing motor that is the same brand/type as the selected club motor, it will not be allowed for use. All the 2008/2009 club motors will be marked and those will be the only motors allowed on the track. Because the motors will be purchased in bulk, the possibility of a price-break exists. We anticipate that the motors will be sold for a price between $35 and $45. The spirit behind club motors is to encourage the closest possible racing as, technically, everyone will have the same horsepower.
B. Any ROAR Legal 27T Motor
This is the scenario we used last year. In this scenario, racers can use any ROAR legal 27T motor they like. IROCC will not carry motors, and so the racers will be responsible for finding their own motors through the various retail channels available to them. In this scenario, brushless motors are not allowed.
C. Any ROAR Legal 27T Motor OR any ROAR Legal 17.5 Brushless Motor
This scenario is like scenario B, but with the addition of ROAR legal brushless 17.5 motors. That is, a racer may use any ROAR legal 27T motor, or any ROAR legal 17.5 brushless motor. This means that there could be a mix of 27T and 17.5BL on the track at the same time - much the same as the Pro10 class this summer.
Each IROCCer that will race during the winter season may submit one vote. You may submit your vote to Craig Roberts or me (Blake Bell). Craig can be reached at home (478-5628) or via his cell (896-5630). Of course you may submit your vote to him in person as well. You may submit your vote to me in person, or via a Private Message on this website (my username here is "blake"). This is NOT a secret ballot vote. The list of voters/votes will be published publicly so that everyone can see their vote. This is the only way to take votes accurately and fairly without having to get everyone together in one place. It will also eliminate any cheating as the votes will be made public.
The deadline for votes will be the end of the raceday this coming Sunday, August 24th, at the Queen Alexandra race.
I expect there to be some questions surrounding the options and the process as a whole. Feel free to ask away here, and we'll do our best to make it clear to everyone.
Blake
I am just wondering. Was the racing closer last year compared to the year before? Or was the racing closer with the club stock motors?
As for brushless, its a pretty big can of worms to open. If members spend good money on a brushless system for 1/12, you know they will want to use it for next years touring stock.
Shawn.
I seem to remember that racing was closer the year(s) before last with hand out motors (there was a time we had hand out batteries) ,Plus ,if someone IS faster than you ,when you all have the same motor,you take the "better"motor factor out of the equation as to why that guy is faster.
This is good.......(Each IROCCer that will race during the winter season may submit one vote.)
-=light=-
Quote from: Arch on August 18, 2008, 09:15:52 PM
I seem to remember that racing was closer the year(s) before last with hand out motors (there was a time we had hand out batteries) ,Plus ,if someone IS faster than you ,when you all have the same motor,you take the "better"motor factor out of the equation as to why that guy is faster.
I just want to keep the racing upto the driver as much as possible, and keep the costs under control.
Club motors can also help beat cheating too. If you suspect someone has tampered with the motor, its easy enough to swap with someone elses. In some full scale racing, they run claimer motors. Pretty much the idea is anyone in the top 10 can claim your motor, and you have no choice but to pull it. (or lose your winnings, points, and be banned from the track. ) Helps prevent cheating, and keeps motor costs under control.
Shawn.
as long as the club can get a decent motor. im in for any 27t and i want to be up front in the A. 12 scale is the year of cheap parts and good times. It takes very little to be a contender in 12scale as long as you can make it around the track in 1 peice. I would hope the club could maybe talk to trent about club motors, i have been very satisfied with t-bangs motors. what do you think phil could trent do that?
Generally speaking, motors are not the issue. It's a red herring but agreeably a spec that needs to be determined. My motor at Saanich, for example, was a Type X from 2 years ago. My fastest run, though, was a sport type E - our overall lowest powered motor, the same variety that won the South Australian TC champs this year. For the most part it's considered the lowest powered current motor out there, yet, it finished at the top with spec batteries in S. AU champs driven by James Ainslie.
17.5 has not been proven to have a consistent advantage over 27T brushed in 1/12 on the track or the dyno.
Variance in an batch of brushed tear-downs leads us to throw a fair number of motors into the parts bin. Rather than ending up in a sport line or the parts bin, these may be in your car. Roughly a one in eight or nine chance. Variance on the brushless motors has been approx 1%.
I vote for option C.
Phil
Quote from: gotnitro on August 19, 2008, 12:04:53 AM
as long as the club can get a decent motor. im in for any 27t and i want to be up front in the A. 12 scale is the year of cheap parts and good times. It takes very little to be a contender in 12scale as long as you can make it around the track in 1 peice. I would hope the club could maybe talk to trent about club motors, i have been very satisfied with t-bangs motors. what do you think phil could trent do that?
Hey, Gerry.
Absolutely. T-Bang has done this for the club in the past as well. It's a whack of time in the shop for BigDaddyT (45 minutes or so per motor) so the lead time is important. Seems many parts of the industry are backed up at present and allowing enough time is critical to getting them in time for October. Bodies are en route to us at present and we'll be offering a 4-cell club rate again this year, too. But this is for another thread ...
P.
i vote for option C
any 27 turn motor is good -no brushless,with any 27 turn motor anyone has the chance to run in the A as it would be with a club motor, anyone that says only a club motor can keep things even is delusional as you could buy as many of either as you want, its luck of the draw
Quote from: BigDawg on August 19, 2008, 11:26:00 AM
any 27 turn motor is good -no brushless,with any 27 turn motor anyone has the chance to run in the A as it would be with a club motor, anyone that says only a club motor can keep things even is delusional as you could buy as many of either as you want, its luck of the draw
Is that an official vote for option B then Doug?
Blake
We have to go brushless at some point
"C"
Jody
sorry! yes blake any 27 turn no brusless(its official)i dont want to wreck any of my expensive brushless equipment when i start throwin my car across MY pit area :o
haha lol :o hows anger manegment coming dog, they give you a chew toy to help
Quote from: haddow on August 19, 2008, 12:55:08 PM
We have to go brushless at some point
"C"
Jody
I Agree and would also Vote for
C
Of course C and Lipo's would be my vote.... otherwise I say whatever 27T. Its the luck of the draw with a club motor. And if you think I'm gonna swap my club motor with Robs forget it - motor maintainance is an important factor here too. Any 27T is fine as the last thing I need is ANOTHER stock motor. I'm gonna have to get a storage unit for them at this rate.....
My vote is A ,it's fun and challanging to have to tune a motor to perform.Not just give up and throw it in the ever increasing "stock motor '' collection and buy something else that someone said might have been fast at some point.
And Doggie......the the only thing delusional is your confidence in your own racing skills.LOL .....feel the burn..... :o
im might feel the burn when i get this nitro fuel out of my eye from racing sunday!what class were you racing on sunday again???? :o
My Vote= (A+B)*!C
Shawn
Quote from: Shawn68z on August 21, 2008, 01:02:31 PM
My Vote= (A+B)*!C
Does that mean A v B?
Or, a more common representation A|B or A||B? I think the idea is it's supposed to be a mutually exclusive choice.
Based on my enjoyment of many years of racing, A gets my vote. I'd really like to see an option D up there, which is handout DC or any AC motor, and that would get my vote if it were an option.
This post is not about the motor decision but just a quick observation regarding the battery choices we have.
Just for the heck of it I decided to grab my 3 remaining packs from last indoor season and take a few voltage readings. Just to be clear, I didn't put any charge in these packs prior to the storing them for the summer, just left whatever was in them after the final races.
It should be no surprise that my one pack of IB4200 had all 4 cells read zero volts. The two packs of EP4200s had all cells reading between .85 and 1.15v, and the two 4 cell packs of EnerG 4600's I picked up for the Kamloops race in the Spring all had over 1.1v each.
I did a cycle on the four remaining packs charging them at 6 AMPS and discharging at 35 AMPs. The 4200 packs both accepted around 4300mah and the 4600s both accepted more than 4600 according to my Futaba charger.
It appears to me that the stability issues have been somewhat taken care of at least. All that aside, I'm not looking forward to having to deal with the usual regimen of maintenance on these things after having such a carefree summer with the LiPos. It'll be interesting to see what comes up a year from now regarding 1/12th chassis, LiPos and Brushless...
Mick
Quote from: Tom on August 21, 2008, 02:23:20 PM
Quote from: Shawn68z on August 21, 2008, 01:02:31 PM
My Vote= (A+B)*!C
Does that mean A v B?
Or, a more common representation A|B or A||B? I think the idea is it's supposed to be a mutually exclusive choice.
Based on my enjoyment of many years of racing, A gets my vote. I'd really like to see an option D up there, which is handout DC or any AC motor, and that would get my vote if it were an option.
(A OR B) AND NOT C
Unfortunately I dont have a lot of knowledge on how a 17.5 compares in real world to a 27T, so out of fear of the unknown, I would like to see everyone run a 27T. It keeps things less expensive too.
Blake:
If you want an exlusive vote then I have to go with 'B'.
Shawn.
I (officially vote) for option A.
A is my vote
I vote for option C... I love the efficiency of brushless and the run times...
The only problem with this vote is:
A gets 10 votes,
B gets 10 votes,
C gets 11 votes.
C wins. 2/3 of the club is un happy. I think the vote should be more like the aussie's voting system where everyone HAS to vote in the order which they like the best. First choice gets 3 points, second choice is 2 points, and last choice 1 point. I know its more complicated but you wont tick off 2/3 of the club.
If brushless does turn out to be fast then what? Do we start adding weight?
Just a thought.
Shawn.
I voted for C for two reasons
1: I have 3 new stock motors just waiting for indoor racing
2: If I want to use a 17.5 I will have that option
I ran the 17.5 around the track a few times and I think a 27 turn would be a bit faster. But I may not have had it geared right also look at the size of the
GTB ESC compared to a GTX ESC.
The guys who are fast will always be fast no matter what why we end up going.
-=light=-
Quote from: light on August 22, 2008, 12:47:32 AM
I voted for C for two reasons
1: I have 3 new stock motors just waiting for indoor racing
2: If I want to use a 17.5 I will have that option
I ran the 17.5 around the track a few times and I think a 27 turn would be a bit faster. But I may not have had it geared right also look at the size of the
GTB ESC compared to a GTX ESC.
The guys who are fast will always be fast no matter what why we end up going.
-=light=-
Size of the brushless system isnt the problem. Its the weight of the brushless could make it a disadvantage. Or it could help by offering more grip on the rear axle.
The problem is when the fast guys get faster cars, they become _REALLY_ fast. I am not worried about the guys that constantly bash the boards. The quicker they go the faster they break their car. I am more worried about keeping close to brian, phil, kurk, tom, craig and mick. If they run a 17.5, and its clearly faster, then instead of being 1 or 2 laps behind, i will be 3 or 4. Last year 1/12 was completely new to me, and it took me all season to figure out how to drive the car, and make it work properly. This year I want to race, and the person winning should be the best _DRIVER_.
Shawn.
Shawn.
Quotethe person winning should be the best _DRIVER_
I agree with this but if we run a club motor it falls back into two areas
1st who can drive
2nd who can tune a motor
isnt that what racing is all about. Plus im sure if you asked someone in the club to look at your motor they would not have a problem.
Its not club motor or not that will be a performance issue its going to be the battery game again. Whoever can afford to buy new NiMh batteries will have a distinct advantage over the guys who use their batteries all season. I'm not looking forward to multiple NiMh battery packs and all the maintainance they require for the winter..... NiMh bleh Batteries are going to be the factor - not the difference between very comparable 27T stock motors....
so true unfortunately
Don't you just love it when the Executive gives you all the choice! LOL
Now you know the hair pulling, eye gouging, nail biting and arguing that goes on when we try to do what we think is best for everyone involved! ::)
I wrote a long, "Thomas like" post last night, arguing the Pros and Cons of our 3 choices, then I decided it wasn't going to make a pinch of difference anyway, so I deleted it.
Basically, I think Choice A is the best choice.
I say that because "IF" we use a "Club" motor, IE: a T-Bang tuned and blue printed motor like we've used in the past with good results, it "should" take pretty much all of the possible variables in quality and performance out of the equation, versus IROCC buying a case or two of generic 27 turn stock motors and hoping for the best! Not to mention it "should" be cheaper for individuals as it would be a "bulk" buy.
Like a lot of you guys, I've got some left over 27 turn stock motors from last year/years ago, but they'll need either a new arm, or new bushing or a magnet re-zapping, or whatever, so what's the point when a brand spankin' new 27 turn is so readily available?
That's in part why I'm not big on Choice B or Choice C.
I say lets give T-Bang/Trent/Phil the opportunity to once again supply us with a top quality 27 turn motor. All we need to do is give them enough lead time to get it done, and that time is quickly ticking away!
HOWEVER, "IF" someone want to run a 17.5 brushless system, I say, all the power to them. But at this point, I'm not aware of anyone in the Club that currently has one. I realize a few guys have the speed controllers already from Pan Car so they're half way there, but eventually IROCC is going to have to bite the bullet when Brushless really becomes main stream. I'm just not sure if we're there yet.
Anyways, for what it is worth, that's what I think...
Regards,
Nick
Quote from: Grinder on August 22, 2008, 02:26:00 PM
Its not club motor or not that will be a performance issue its going to be the battery game again. Whoever can afford to buy new NiMh batteries will have a distinct advantage over the guys who use their batteries all season. I'm not looking forward to multiple NiMh battery packs and all the maintainance they require for the winter..... NiMh bleh Batteries are going to be the factor - not the difference between very comparable 27T stock motors....
I disagree strongly.
Last year I did purchase a couple new NiMH packs to replace my 1.5 year old packs, hoping that would solve my poor performance. I had ended up dropping to around 1 lap off the pace around mid-season. The new batteries made no difference whatsoever. A chassis adjustment a few weeks later changed my car to being 1 lap off the pace to a contender.
I'll be one of the first people to lament the demise of NiCad batteries in competitive R/C racing, since NiCads were so durable relative to NiMH chemistry. However, this constant whining about how horrible NiMH are is completely undeserved. NiMH are far more durable than most in our club give them credit for, and I strongly believe most failures can be attributed to poor maintenance of batteries rather than the batteries themselves.
To clarify, I consider discharge trays, discharging after a run, cycling, etc. all poor maintenance practices, since these add significant and unnecessary stress to the batteries, and are in my opinion a major contributor to the poor cycle life many club members complain about.
Furthermore, to bring this back on-topic, I'd like to encourage some people to vote on this issue from the perspective of what they think is best for the club as a whole, rather than how many worn-out motors they have in their toolbox.
"However, this constant whining about how horrible NiMH are is completely undeserved"
you are kidding right?
"To clarify, I consider discharge trays, discharging after a run, cycling, etc. all poor maintenance practices, since these add significant and unnecessary stress to the batteries, and are in my opinion a major contributor to the poor cycle life many club members complain about."
read a manual, or talk to a manufacturer about this, you are on your own on this point too. You may feel that this is unneeded but this is what EVERY racer is told to do from just about EVERYWHERE.
I am in 100% agreement with Nick and my vote is A
Last winter we had our pick of any number of flavours of motors and when it came down to it, it wasn't the motor that made much difference at all. The same crop of drivers still managed to end up in the A...
I would say there are a few reasons for this, and the sooner people step back and look at the bigger picture, the better..
A main reason why the top guys are the top guys is they have a thorough understanding of how their car works and years of experience in knowing what to do to make it handle better. It doesn't matter if you are running the hottest modified motor against a field of stock motors, if you're car is not set up properly, you will not be fast. Most race days this summer I have tried to get around to as many Pro10 cars as I could to see if I could help them with their setups. More often than not, I could find something wrong that would severely hamper their abilities to drive a clean line. Preparation of your car is critical people!
Remember, Tom is an anomaly! Well I'd say Tom and Jarrod are the only guys I've ever seen drive cars that were complete crap and still managed to make them look good :)
Making sure your suspension is as free as possible, making sure your front end has little play in it, making sure all your screws are tight, making sure your battery is securely mounted, making sure your body posts are solid and when you're mounting the body that it floats freely on the body posts so as not to tweak your car in any way. Speaking of tweak, before every run you should throw the car on a tweak station; there are usually a few set up at the track and everyone is more than welcome to use mine at any time. If you don't know how to use one, please feel free to ask! Make sure your bearings are in good shape and rolling freely. Make sure your tires don't have any chunks that can fly off mid-race, and try and run them through a truer if they don't match. Again , there are always a couple tire truers at the track and I'm sure most would not complain about you borrowing them.
This club is frik-frakken (Blake-ism) amazing when it comes to people lending a hand with any problem you may have. So much knowledge in one group is very rare indeed, take advantage of these guys!
The other main reason the top guys are the top guys is because they know how to slow down. Yes you read that correctly, how to SLOW DOWN.
Any car that is designed for a road course has limitations on what it can do. Driving full throttle until you're 2 feet from the corner, slamming on the brakes and pointing it straight at the next corner and mashing the throttle down is NOT the quickest way around the track. Knowing when to hit the gas, knowing when to back off to allow your car to transfer weight to the front so those little tires can grab the carpet, these are things that you need to learn to make your car go fast. If you're not corner marshalling the fast guy's heats, stop and really watch how they drive. Watch where they hit the throttle, watch when they back off, watch their throttle finger and steering fingers. Note how they NEVER let go of the steering wheel to center their car going down the straight away. Learn where they apex the corners. Note how they treat slow s-curves versus high speed doglegs. There is so much to learn all the time. You never stop learning.
Once you can truly say your skills are up to the top guys and they're still beating you, then look for other reasons. Very rarely will it come down to who's spending the most money or who bought the latest flavour of the week motors. Those of us that have spent waay too much money on this hobby know very well, that that new cool looking battery/motorwarmer/cooler/tire cooker/cooler/12guagewire/spagettiwire/noisesuppresion/liquidcooledturbofan/stainlesssteel/unobtainium-axled/ceramicbearing/GenXSP12X12L5/TekinNovak/anodized/dekeledupthewazoo is all just cause we like cool looking things on our pit table. If they give us a psychological advantage then so be it :)
It's a hobby after all and anyone that takes this stuff too serious should consider taking a season or two off. Trust me when I say that can do you a world of good and get a proper perspective on things......
Pick any one of the three motor scenarios and I guarantee you that the guys that do the prep work before hand and understand and respect their equipment will be fast.
Mick
Yeah, good post Mick - IROCC is "fricken" good when it comes to knowledge sharing. Although, sometimes I wonder what's under that towel on your Pro10 car...! Just kidding!
Interestingly, I found your post more of a nod for Option C rather than Option A....
You're so right: there are MANY factors of which the motor is just one. For some reason the motor usually gets the most attention.
Blake
well here my take, whats the cheapest best way to make it a even playin feild??
if we order a set of motors from trent, or whoever tunes stock motors these days, then there all goin to be fairly even in performance..yes you may still have the odd few that are really fast, and the odd slower one. its electronics, its the way they are.. but if you do happen to get the slower one, almost enyone in the club can/will help you with it..and we would most likely get a bulk order discount..
someone above mention'd switchin motors between drivers.. anyone thaught of having a true handout motor?? u get a motor at the begining of the night, then at the end they are all returned and through in a box, the next race night, as you register you reach in, like drawing a raffle ticket, and pull one out?
most racers cut/rebuild their motor each night anyway right?? wel if so the wear factor wont be much of a factor, and that way as the motors circulate they are kept up/rebuilt by the last guy.
just an idea i had last time we ran club motors..
Quote from: Grinder on August 22, 2008, 02:26:00 PM
Its not club motor or not that will be a performance issue its going to be the battery game again. Whoever can afford to buy new NiMh batteries will have a distinct advantage over the guys who use their batteries all season. I'm not looking forward to multiple NiMh battery packs and all the maintainance they require for the winter..... NiMh bleh Batteries are going to be the factor - not the difference between very comparable 27T stock motors....
Then maybe we should be looking at a bulk battery purchase also and have a club battery system?
Quote from: Arch on August 23, 2008, 01:31:06 PM
Quote from: Grinder on August 22, 2008, 02:26:00 PM
Its not club motor or not that will be a performance issue its going to be the battery game again. Whoever can afford to buy new NiMh batteries will have a distinct advantage over the guys who use their batteries all season. I'm not looking forward to multiple NiMh battery packs and all the maintainance they require for the winter..... NiMh bleh Batteries are going to be the factor - not the difference between very comparable 27T stock motors....
Then maybe we should be looking at a bulk battery purchase also and have a club battery system?
Although we didn't enforce it last year, this is basically what we had since most racers bought their batteries through the easily accessible Phil/T-Bang channel. It's also harder with batteries because they change SO fast. You can make a rule at the start of the season, but you might find that you can no longer get those batteries by mid-season.
Blake
If the common theme is the motors don't make any difference why would we want to buy yet ANOTHER stock motor? If we include it in the club fees it just jacks the fees up to cover the cost of the handout. It seems senseless to buy another motor if you already have a box full of them. Who here doesn't have at least two or three stock motors? I mean if you buy one you almost need to buy a second spare just in case you need to quickly change in a new motor for your next heat. With the added expense of buying multiple packs of batteries probably multiple times in a season do we need to spend money on one or two redundant stock motors?
handing in motors is a bad idea who is going to true all of them for next weekend. I wouldnt want to invest in a motor and have someone that doesnt know how to souder and get it all over the end bell.As well as someone smashing the endbell ring into the wall ,next thing you know you have a crappy motor. A- sounds good and all you guys should be double reading what Mick had posted .Its SMRT
Don't try and tell me that your NOT going to buy a new motor or four this season. Weall know you too well.lol
Hey Blake,
When I started the post I was leaning towards A for sure. By the time I finished writing it I think I was leaning towards "it doesn't matter" :)
People not familiar with motorsport, and specifically road course cars simply equate speed with the power plant, not so much the way you drive lines and how efficient your whole car is....
Mick
i still have 2 t-bang motors from last year that kicked ass. I will be looking at new batterys though
Quote from: Grinder on August 23, 2008, 03:08:15 PM
It seems senseless to buy another motor if you already have a box full of them. Who here doesn't have at least two or three stock motors? I mean if you buy one you almost need to buy a second spare just in case you need to quickly change in a new motor for your next heat. With the added expense of buying multiple packs of batteries probably multiple times in a season do we need to spend money on one or two redundant stock motors?
not everyone buys 4/5+ motors a season, and has them stock pilled in their box or closet,.. i buy
A motor for
A season, and im shure im not alone in this, so im goin to need one. and 2 maybe 3 batteries..what ever we are using this year..
Ok so the racing today got rained out but now for the vote. Blake when will you post the names and the results
Gorden
A Votes ( 8 )
Archer, Shane
Bowker, John
Fantetti, Rob
Heap, Jarrod
Newroth, Nick
Roberts, Craig
Szirmay, Mick
Younger, Tom
B Votes ( 4 )
Ball, Doug
Jones, Daryl
Zweers, Shawn
Myatt, Don
C Votes ( 11 )
Ashmore, Brian
Bell, Blake
Bernard, Gerry
Cady, Phil
Dalby, Vanessa
Haddow, Jody
MacKay, Kurk
McInnes, Steffan
Metters, Trevor
Sladich, Matt
Wood, Gord
Quote from: Blake on August 26, 2008, 08:09:16 PM
A Votes ( 8 )
Archer, Shane
Bowker, John
Fantetti, Rob
Heap, Jarrod
Newroth, Nick
Roberts, Craig
Szirmay, Mick
Younger, Tom
B Votes ( 4 )
Ball, Doug
Jones, Daryl
Zweers, Shawn
Myatt, Don
C Votes ( 11 )
Ashmore, Brian
Bell, Blake
Bernard, Gerry
Cady, Phil
Dalby, Vanessa
Haddow, Jody
MacKay, Kurk
McInnes, Steffan
Metters, Trevor
Sladich, Matt
Wood, Gord
Well it looks like C wins
WTF is Blake doing on the "C" list? Isn't that a progresive vote? Jeez the guy gets a new girlfriend and the world turns on its ear :P
Just came acrross this thread. Wow when you don't look at the forum that much anymore you kinda loss out. Well is this the ofocial vote yes or not with 22 votes and we all know there are more people that actully race. to bad I cannot vote. Oh well.
See ya all indoors.
Quote from: cyrrus on August 27, 2008, 06:13:31 AM
Just came acrross this thread. Wow when you don't look at the forum that much anymore you kinda loss out. Well is this the ofocial vote yes or not with 22 votes and we all know there are more people that actully race. to bad I cannot vote. Oh well.
See ya all indoors.
I would think so
QuoteQuote from Blake
Each IROCCer that will race during the winter season may submit one vote. You may submit your vote to Craig Roberts or me (Blake Bell). Craig can be reached at home (478-5628) or via his cell (896-5630). Of course you may submit your vote to him in person as well. You may submit your vote to me in person, or via a Private Message on this website (my username here is "blake"). This is NOT a secret ballot vote. The list of voters/votes will be published publicly so that everyone can see their vote. This is the only way to take votes accurately and fairly without having to get everyone together in one place. It will also eliminate any cheating as the votes will be made public.
The deadline for votes will be the end of the raceday this coming Sunday, August 24th, at the Queen Alexandra race.
Time limit on vote was a little short dont you think?
I also find it odd that you say on the26th that voting ends on the 24th.wtf
i don't see why you guys can't vote still. i know the deadline has passed but not all of us are on here everyday. this should have been announced at a race day or something.
im sure blake would except a few late voters its not like indoors starts this week.right blake???
Ken and Doug
Sure thing. Latecomers, please cast your votes now. Better late than never. I believe Phil needs motor numbers by this weekend at the absolute latest though.
Shane
The reason for the tight timeline was simply to ensure we can get the motors in our hands before the start of the season. Also, not sure what you mean about the 24th/26th thing. I started this thread on August 18th.
Andrew
We've always said the website is NOT the place for official decisions to be made. Therefore I would have *hoped* that the vote was mentioned to the racers at the August 17th raceday; I was not there, so I guess it was not.... If you were at the August 24th raceday then you would have heard about it for sure. Please cast your vote now.
Kurk
I sold my vote to Gord for 20 Timbits. I did it just to get your goat.
Blake "looking forward to just getting down and racing" Bell
Hey, Guys.
Yeah, timing on battery orders will be critical most of all. 4-6 weeks lead time we are told. For the motor front - it depends on the club's final decision. Specifically, the XB 17.5 brushless - should the club go that route - is very difficult to keep in stock and sometimes backordered from the factory for months. Similarly, if the club went down tht handout route and we were to tune some up, we have limited quantities on hand and would need to order some. Stock motors take approx 45 minutes of Trent's time whereas brushless is half that time since there is no need to spend 20 minutes breaking in (10 at 1V and 10 at 2V for example) and there is no com to cut. So, either way, the decisions the exec make will impact production in one form or another should the club opt to get motors from T-Bang at all. It would be a shame to hit the carpet with most folks out of luck or paying top dollar on the battery front!
P.
if any of the guys who did not vote showed up last weekend to help setup or put away the track they would all know whats going on with the vote.
No need for late votes......just my 2 cents
Well lets see......Glenn is away on holidays,Kieth and Dustin arent accounted for,Nick Fantetti,Where is he?So I assume there are more interested parties not aware of this rushed deadline.I thought the EXECUTIVE was going to make a FINAL decision,for the greater good for all.May I also point out that if you combine A and B it trumps C.So really more members prefer to run stock motors!How do ya like THAT. :-* myne
You can't add A to B since they are not the same but B & C are closer to each other
A. Handout Club Motor
B. Any ROAR Legal 27T Motor
C. Any ROAR Legal 27T Motor OR any ROAR Legal 17.5 Brushless Motor
No mater what gets decided on the main goal I hope is to have fun.
What planet are you on?A hand out is similar to any stock motor.Stock and brushless are apples and oranges.You do know the
difference between the two.......right............Ones red.........Ones orange...............?...........?Leave the decisions to the exec!!!
Quote from: Arch on August 27, 2008, 11:11:17 PM
Well lets see......Glenn is away on holidays,Kieth and Dustin arent accounted for,Nick Fantetti,Where is he?So I assume there are more interested parties not aware of this rushed deadline.I thought the EXECUTIVE was going to make a FINAL decision,for the greater good for all.May I also point out that if you combine A and B it trumps C.So really more members prefer to run stock motors!How do ya like THAT. :-* myne
Just another example on why democracy doesnt work. Sure you could say the most people voted for allowing brushless, but the truth is more people voted AGAINST brushless.
Heck, I think both my kids will race this winter.. They should get a vote too. ;)
Shawn.
Quote from: Arch on August 27, 2008, 11:28:17 PM
What planet are you on?A hand out is similar to any stock motor.Stock and brushless are apples and oranges.You do know the
difference between the two.......right............Ones red.........Ones orange...............?...........?Leave the decisions to the exec!!!
Shane the reason I said that B & C were closer is that you can use Any ROAR Legal 27T Motor were in
A you have to use the handout.
The brushless motor is just a extra motor that one could use if they wanted to.
;D
Guys, I've been sitting through your rants for a while now and quite frankly it's getting old. If you haven't had a chance to read my previous lengthy post, perhaps you should. The motor is NOT the be all and end all of what makes someone fast. Year after year the same guys are running up front and it's NOT THE MOTOR thats doing it...
We could make the rule that there is no rule; you can run any motor/speed control/battery combo you can possibly stuff in your car yet keeping the top 15 guys running a stock motor, and I bet you they will still be up front.
People cannot continue living with their heads in the sand. You can long for the good old days all you want but the straight and hard facts are back in the day when we would see a new motor or new battery it was all an evolution of the existing technologies. We are not talking about that situation here, the old technology is going the way of the dinosaur, it won't even be available for purchase a year from now. Giving the club the opportunity to experiment with a new technology is all we're talking about here. A year from now we may indeed go to a club brushless system, who knows? For right now this is still a transition year that started 12 months ago. Transitions due to technology are always rocky, you never know if you're making the right decision by making a commitment one way or the other. The simple truth is this is not a cheap hobby. Bashing around with a buggy in your back yard can be cheap R/C fun but as soon as you want to race, you complicate everything. Someone will always be playing catch up and be disgruntled about it. Thats human nature.
Voting for A in a perfect world would make everyone happy, it appears that is not the case. What was I thinking....sigh...
It's a frikken toy car people...no need to get bent out of shape over a toy car.
Mick
...and if science and consumer demand is phasing out brushed motors all the more reason for a B vote and use up the leftovers and if for some strange reason you don't already have a brushed motor well you are the exception to the rule and go buy whatever you want for the season.
I think when it comes down to it its nice to hear what everyone would like and all their varried and coloured opinions but the final say should as always be with the Exec. I'm sure they deliberated for a long time over what to do and they've managed to help guide this into probably one of the best R/C clubs in the world - yea the world my friends ;)
Quote from: Shawn68z on August 27, 2008, 11:37:57 PM
Heck, I think both my kids will race this winter.. They should get a vote too. ;)
Shawn.
If they paid memebrship fees then they do get a vote
Quote from: Blake on August 26, 2008, 08:09:16 PM
A Votes ( 8 )
Archer, Shane
Bowker, John
Fantetti, Rob
Heap, Jarrod
Newroth, Nick
Roberts, Craig
Szirmay, Mick
Younger, Tom
B Votes ( 4 )
Ball, Doug
Jones, Daryl
Zweers, Shawn
Myatt, Don
C Votes ( 11 )
Ashmore, Brian
Bell, Blake
Bernard, Gerry
Cady, Phil
Dalby, Vanessa
Haddow, Jody
MacKay, Kurk
McInnes, Steffan
Metters, Trevor
Sladich, Matt
Wood, Gord
you can definately see the different groups in the club, A.) the guys that just good close racing, and almost all are veteran club memebers..C.) the guys that always what/have the newest and greatest stuff. and for the most part, already have the brushless setups.
Quote from: DekelzMan on August 28, 2008, 01:26:09 AM
It's a frikken toy car people...no need to get bent out of shape over a toy car.
Mick
sorry to bring this up Mick,but were you not the one who packed up and dissapeared from sanich dayz because of one of theese so called toy cars!its easy to call them toys here in the forum not so easy at the track all of the time!
And how would you know why I left Saanich Days?
i guess now that its all over you can say you left for any reason but everyone knows, im the only one that said it!
Speculation can be a very scary thing dude. Wield it with caution.....
If it must be said, and you can ask anyone that I actually spoke to before I left, I simply had had enough racing for a while. I was not upset, the car was just fine, I just needed to put it away for a while. No mysteries, no melodrama here :) August is always insanely busy for me with family stuff and r/c simply loses out to family every time.
I here ya there im almost raced out for this summer. I might finish the season this weekend and wait till kamloops. Then glorious 12scale rock on. ;D
slightly off topic but I just saw this post on the message board at the iic race in Vegas...
(5:45pm)Stealth_RT: has smc tested their new 1S lipo in 1/12th scale yet?
you can say what you want ,what ever helps you sleep at nite!no one packs up in the middle of a trophy race weekend just out of the blue for absolutly no reason other than you were raced out,theres no shame in just admitting that we dont always see them as toy cars!
ROFL
I'm definitely not saying I'm above that, if you have any passion for racing you will get frustrated. Thats human nature. Anyway, this discussion is waay off thread now. We can discuss psychosis in a another discussion :)
The times are a changin,I remember something like this happening to the club in the early to mid 90s. :'(
Quote from: Arch on August 29, 2008, 08:46:04 PM
The times are a changin,I remember something like this happening to the club in the early to mid 90s.
...And you have heard my opinions on how to help the situation, and the last few posts prior to this seem to add weight to it...
Quote from: Tom on August 29, 2008, 11:01:36 PM
Quote from: Arch on August 29, 2008, 08:46:04 PM
The times are a changin,I remember something like this happening to the club in the early to mid 90s.
...And you have heard my opinions on how to help the situation, and the last few posts prior to this seem to add weight to it...
ya its a shhitpile easier not to put stuff to a damn vote. The exec can quietly tear itself apart behind stage rather than let the general population eat itself live on national TV so to speak. The exec puts WAAAAYYYY more consideration into each and every decision than they will ever get credit for. Our decisions will never be able to make everyone happy. Once a few people are unhappy with an exec decsion then they become a squeeky wheel on the forums here, demand more issues go to the polls and guess what, everyone is still not happy, never will be. We can only try our best, not be perfect.
Jody
the executives do an awsome outstanding job!!and the club does just as good at complaining about the decisions they make!.and even better at showing up to race.keep it up ,12 scale is gonna be a great season
Dog you have something brown on your nose.lol ;)
Quote from: WhoDoYouThink on August 22, 2008, 03:28:59 PM
Don't you just love it when the Executive gives you all the choice! LOL
Now you know the hair pulling, eye gouging, nail biting and arguing that goes on when we try to do what we think is best for everyone involved! ::)
Well, we opened another can of worms now didn't we!
For the life of me, I can't accurately remember what we as the Executive voted for, or what the final head count was on the decision we arrived at.
I re-read what Kurk said:
"I think when it comes down to it its nice to hear what everyone would like and all their varried and coloured opinions but the final say should as always be with the Exec. I'm sure they deliberated for a long time over what to do and they've managed to help guide this into probably one of the best R/C clubs in the world - yea the world my friends ;) "
Perhaps Thomas, IROCC's acting Secretary, can refresh my memory of what the Executive decided that night at Boston Pizza.
NOTHING! I was there,fumeing.It was a waste of my time and breath.I pleaded to make it more affordable ,more competetive and it all fell on deaf ears.Too many self interested opinions to make a decision.All this talk of testing and research on the various technologies is bunk.Put in your Nimh ,slam in a stock motor ,then shut up and race!We are really making more difficult than it is .The time for research was in the summer,Leave 12th scale(a jewel in it self)alone.I read a post earlier about running too many classes watering down the racing leaving stock classes out in the cold as an ENTRY class.The eveidence is just across the pond in Van.We are/were the best club in the world for a reason,wake up before its too late.
I reserve the right to rant on this forum,cause thats what its for.shheeeesh.
Quote from: Arch on August 30, 2008, 12:08:28 PM
Too many self interested opinions to make a decision.
just wondering why your opinion isnt as self interested as everyone elses?
To try and keep cost down is not self interest.It benefits all involved,not just me.In all truth I took one of the Execs advice to stop coming out if I couldnt afford it .Talk about good solid club building advice.Tired of fighting for equality.
Cost? My esc, motor and Lipo cost less than I spent on batteries alone last year. Investing in brushless, a brushed/brushless esc, and LiPo is a solid investment in both the near and longer term. It was paid for by selling the old stuff. It can be done and it can save you money in one single season.
The real worry sounds like the potential for performance advantage through LiPo and brushless which hasn't borne out on the track this year, has it? If it's not "fear-of-being rendered-slower-than-the-guys-I-used-to-beat" based, then what is the worry? Cost? BTW, at the ROAR indoor champs this last season, a brushed motor won the stock rubber class in a field of brushless motors. Using LiPo clearly saves money, too, so what is all the worry about?
For motors:
A=most expensive
B=less expensive
C=less expensive and gives people the opportunity to try something new IF they feel like it, even though there is no performance advantage.
No threat, no sweat.
P.
i agree,cost can not be the problem! a brushless system has saved me enough to buy a new pan car compared to last year! just brushes alone! 3.50 a pair per sat all winter will pay for my motor!how can that not be keeping the cost down?and if a guy had to buy an esc(mabye he fried his) a brushed /brushless isnt really anymore than i paid for my first q2.........
not to mention if we go A then i have to spend more and buy a new club motor!-more money spent! or we could do B and i could use one i already have-or C like i already said brushless will save me enough in brushes to pay for a brushless motor! would seem to me A is the most expensive choice! so what was your point again shane?
Quote from: BigDawg on August 30, 2008, 07:40:31 PM
i agree,cost can not be the problem! a brushless system has saved me enough to buy a new pan car compared to last year! just brushes alone! 3.50 a pair per sat all winter will pay for my motor!how can that not be keeping the cost down?and if a guy had to buy an esc(mabye he fried his) a brushed /brushless isnt really anymore than i paid for my first q2.........
Swapping brushes every weekend is a waste.. I am on my 4th set of brushes this summer in my TC. I normally run them for about 4 weekends before changing them. I do cut the comm every week though, and re-seat the brushes.
For in door carpet last winter, I believe I changed my brushes once, and that was out of boredom.
Shawn.
Quote from: RC51 on August 30, 2008, 05:07:32 PM
Cost? My esc, motor and Lipo cost less than I spent on batteries alone last year. Investing in brushless, a brushed/brushless esc, and LiPo is a solid investment in both the near and longer term. It was paid for by selling the old stuff. It can be done and it can save you money in one single season.
The real worry sounds like the potential for performance advantage through LiPo and brushless which hasn't borne out on the track this year, has it? If it's not "fear-of-being rendered-slower-than-the-guys-I-used-to-beat" based, then what is the worry? Cost? BTW, at the ROAR indoor champs this last season, a brushed motor won the stock rubber class in a field of brushless motors. Using LiPo clearly saves money, too, so what is all the worry about?
For motors:
A=most expensive
B=less expensive
C=less expensive and gives people the opportunity to try something new IF they feel like it, even though there is no performance advantage.
No threat, no sweat.
P.
Please do not bring the cost savings of LiPo into the argument unless we are going to run Lipo for 1/12th. I think everyone in the club will agree Lipo has been fabulous this year.
A brushless system (ESC, and Motor) costs $250'ish. The only time a brushless system is going to save money is if you dont have a good brushed ESC. Otherwise, if you have a good brushed ESC, then you can buy a sport motor from you on sale for $20. Since the 4cell is not hard on the motors you should not have to change the brushes all the time.
Shawn.
how many times did you make the A? and still you spent more on brushes than i did this summer and how much did that comm lathe cost? at least as much as my motor hell my last lathe bit cost more than my brushless motor!
What ever .As for Phil your a distributer,Id be trying to open it up also.As for Dud ,isnt playing devils advocate getting a little stale?
Quote from: BigDawg on August 30, 2008, 09:19:05 PM
how many times did you make the A? and still you spent more on brushes than i did this summer and how much did that comm lathe cost? at least as much as my motor hell my last lathe bit cost more than my brushless motor!
I made it to the 'A' 10 times out of the 13 races that I ran during the summer. I paid $25 for the lathe, and a new bit is $8.00 at House of Tools. So, how much did you pay for the brushless? I bet it was more then $40. Oh, and a set of F brushes is only .99 at most online hobby shops.
Shawn.
Quote from: WhoDoYouThink on August 30, 2008, 12:55:54 AM
Perhaps Thomas, IROCC's acting Secretary, can refresh my memory of what the Executive decided that night at Boston Pizza.
That'll have to wait 'till Tuesday -- the results are there.
I too can't recall for sure, but I think it was A.
We decided though since it was so contentious, and since we were still so divided, we'd give people what they keep on asking for -- more of a voice in the decisions.
Quote from: Arch on August 30, 2008, 10:07:33 PM
What ever .As for Phil your a distributer,Id be trying to open it up also.
No offense, but think about it, Shane. Our interest as a retailer would be for option A - bid on 50 or so tuned motors - as opposed to a handful (literally) of 17.5. Clearly, C is my personal choice since I like options in all aspects of life, of which RC is one. Besides which, T-bang gave all cash accrued vis a vis IROCC bulk purchases back to the club at Speed Weekend. There were so many things to give away that they were/are carried forward to next year. So, even hypothetically, if it was in T-Bang interest to open it up, it would also be in the club's interest since it all came back in spades.
So, in all seriousness, what are your thoughts about the logic of my previous post? I may well be missing some piece of the puzzle but I can't see it. It's all rhetoric, really, since the club will do what the club will do and we'll all get out there and hit the carpet. This was the opportunity to have a voice as the membership had always wanted. Even if it is to return to the Exec decision, at least it's all out there rather than speculation about who wants what and why. Even if I had wanted A and the bulk was turning to C, your comment would still apply so it's a catch 22 for me to even vote.
Phil
Quote from: Arch on August 30, 2008, 10:07:33 PM
As for Dud ,isnt playing devils advocate getting a little stale?
thats funny i was gonna ask you the same about complaining every time the club doesnt do what you want!in case you didnt see i voted B as i have 15 stock motors already and dont want to get sucked into buyin another
Quote from: Shawn68z on August 30, 2008, 11:40:12 PM
I made it to the 'A' 10 times out of the 13 races that I ran during the summer.
well i guess that is quit an accomplishment when there is only 2 heats how about last winter? you can do as little work to your car as you want!when your winning the A ill start taking your advice until then ill just do the math! A cost me the most to race b nothing a c the same as A or less and and I'm not buying something i have 15 duplicates of already!as i didnt really think its all that cool to look at a box full of motors that are useless to me
Shawn.
ooops that quote didnt work! or did it ;D
Quote from: BigDawg on August 30, 2008, 09:19:05 PM
how many times did you make the A? and still you spent more on brushes than i did this summer and how much did that comm lathe cost? at least as much as my motor hell my last lathe bit cost more than my brushless motor!
I think I make the A more than you do, and I don't change brushes as often as you do either.
Anyone can choose to spend wads of cash on racing, and some racers learn that some things are just a waste of money.
In my opinion (and I'm not alone in this), Option A tends to result in less money being spent on racing in general than the other options. This is because when everyone has the same equipment, the temptation to waste money is less than when more options are available to the racer.
Of course there are some racers who don't care about their racing budget, and there are others that would rather run what's in their box than run the same motor as everyone else -- you're never going to make everyone happy. But, Option A eliminates the temptation to buy a different motor because you're not sure if the type you have sucks or not.
This discussion can continue in circles for a long time.
i dont even remember seeing you at racing!but whatever stock is stock weather i use one i got or buy another!
when will the final decision be made???
I though it was made already with the C Option
just wanted to make sure!
Quote from: BigDawg on September 01, 2008, 02:50:01 PM
just wanted to make sure!
One of the Executives should post to make it final
-=light=-
I think we're all scared....
For what it's worth:
1. It took the Exec two hours of *strong* debating to come up with no real answer. 60% of the Exec wanted Option A but could see some merits of the other options.
2. Based off the flack we took last winter, we decided to throw it to the group in an unprecedented move of democracy. As you can see, Option C technically "wins" but not
convincingly. Maybe the vote should have been worded differently... who knows.
3. Although Option C was the most popular, about half of those voters have no intention of running brushless this winter. Not sure if this really matters or not....
4. At the track yesterday, after being away from the computer for four days, I was ready to defend myself on many levels. In the end, no one approached me with anything negative to say about the process.
5. This winter I will give Shane my motor from last winter (or any other motor in my box for that matter), and I will buy Thomas a set of tires for his car. Then, if either of them can get around the track without touching a wall, and they STILL can't run in the Top 1-4 then I will personally apologize to them that the system has failed them.
Blake "Option C and be done with it" Bell
kool ;D
"5. This winter I will give Shane my motor from last winter (or any other motor in my box for that matter), and I will buy Thomas a set of tires for his car. Then, if either of them can get around the track without touching a wall, and they STILL can't run in the Top 1-4 then I will personally apologize to them that the system has failed them."
LMFAO - best post yet.
Really option "C" wasn't an option when ppl started "voting" it kind of started out as a joke. Option "C" will come wether its this year or not - its just how long we want to delay the inevitable. I think although we are sucsessfull in doing our own thing we should also try to keep up with the times and what clubs around us are doing(ish). Of course as we've seen with the countless post from the more vocal members of the club opinions vary greatly which is why the democratic process just doesn't work for our club. We may moan and groan but when it comes down to it whatever motor we run we'll still be racing and ultimately that's all I really care about.
So that being said we're running brushless right? :P
Quote from: Grinder link=topic=2409.msg17813#msg17813 date=1220395898
So that being said we're running brushless right? :P
/quote]
As Blake posted Option C