Several people have been wondering just how we set up the heats at the beginning of the night, and are concerned that our policy isn't as good as it could be. I will first outline what we started the season with, and then follow up with the current technique.
We need to start out with some simple statistics concepts, namely mean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean) and median (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median).
Basically, the mean is another term for average, which I hope everyone is familiar with. The median is a similar concept, but it is often better, since it is not sensitive to outliers. This means that if you suck really bad, you'll bring down your average (or mean), but your median will stay about the same. Technically, the median value means that half the time you did better than this, and the other half the time you did worse. You determine the median by sorting all your results and then picking the middle one. If there's an even number of results (and hence no middle one), then you typically either pick one of them, or any value in between. The spreadsheet program I have been using to help set up the races takes the average of the two middle values. It is often best to pick one value to either side of the middle in the case of an even number to ensure the median is always an actual observed amount (which is another advantage of median over mean), but unfortunately (as I mentioned above) my spreadsheet program is too dumb to do that, and it doesn't really matter in the end all that much.
Points are calculated based on your finishing position, where 1st in the A gets 100 points, and every position down from there gets 1 less point. TQ is also worth one bonus point. If you bump, the worst you can do is get the same number of points as if you didn't bother. If you qualified but didn't run the main, you are entered into the appropriate main so you end up with points corresponding to last in that main, rather than 0.
We started out the season ordering everyone in the heats based on their median points recived so far. Let's concoct an example so that everyone can get an idea.
Let's say Bob got 88, 85, then 87.
Let's say Bill got 73, 86, 87, 88.
Bob's mean is 86.67, and his median is 87.
Bill's mean is 83.50, and his median is somewhere between 86 and 87; let's just say 86.5.
As you can see, both racers seem to have similar skill level, except Bill got shafted on his first night. This really screws his average, but if we use his median, it is more fair.
We started the season sorting everyone in the heats based on their median score, but some people were very upset, so we went to a more sophisticated approach.
Traditionally, we have sorted people into qualifiers based on their previous nights race results. This is fine and dandy, but not everyone races every single night, and this is where the problems come in. Say for example Blake were to miss a night of racing. Say also that there was a typical turnout with 7 racers plus one bump-up, with 8 guys ending up in the main that night. Next week, we have the same number of guys, plus Blake shows up. That means we have 7 spots in the A heat to fill, with 8 guys who finished in the A last week, plus one guy who is always a top contender in the club. This has always been a difficult thing to sort out, and people have often been upset when we use a judgment call to sort out the standings. One thing we have done in the past is to demote a racer one heat if they missed out the previous week. Let's consider Daryl right now. Daryl often runs in the A, but sometimes he ends up in the B. This past week he finished in the B. If he were to miss next week, and then be demoted one heat next time he came back to racing, we'd have a regular A runner racing in the C heat. This is no fun for Daryl, since he's trying to qualify for the A main from the C heat, and it's no fun for the guys in the C, since they will have to be pulling over for Daryl every few laps.
Not only that, but our club has grown extensively in the last few years, and it is very difficult to figure out where a racer finished if they were not there the past week. It is difficult to carry around the race results for that many weeks, plus it is a royal pain in the butt. Not only that, but this does not solve the initial problem described above, to pick who out of the 9 people who deserve a spot in the A will be the lucky 7, especially if your racer is Mike rather than Blake.
This was the motivation for the method we started the season with. It is entirely fair, easy to understand, and entirely deterministic (meaning there is no judgement involved, and any person can come up with the same starting order). However, the traditional method of basing the qualifying order on the previous race results is both familiar and also a great method, so we attempted to re-introduce that concept, but eliminate the problems caused by either demoting racers one heat and determining where people who didn't race last week should end up. Our new method is a combination of both methods mentioned above, hence the description of the median.
We sort all racers based on the points they recieved last week, which accomplishes the same thing as looking at the main results, with the exception of the bonus point (which ends up not mattering most of the time). We also take the sorted median results of all racers. For all racers who were not there last week, we locate their overall rank (say, 8th place in the median score), and insert them into last weeks race results in that location. So, the person that finished 8th overall last week will be gridded 9th overall this week, behind the racer that wasn't here last week.
We feel this method has several advantages over the techniques we have used in the past. Firstly, it is based on the familiar concept of basing your starting position for the night of racing on your previous race results. Secondly, there are unambiguous rules that we use to determine the grid, without having to resort to guesses as to who should go in what race. Thirdly, it avoids having to carry around race results for the entire season. And also, it is easy for the race director to set up.
I can think of one major disadvantage to this approach that we avoided with the method we started the season with. Let's take Nick Newroth as an example. He broke his car twice early on in the night, and retired early for lack of spare parts. He was awarded points based on his qualifying position, so he finished 9th in the B (knowing he was not going to race, there were extra drivers seeded into that race). So, based on this approach, he will end up being seeded into the C heat, even though he is normally in the A or the B.
This is a major oversight, which was caused by the fact that we started with a different system. If we only sorted people by their median score (like we started the season), then this would not be an issue. Since we changed methods, this has turned into a problem. I would appreciate some feedback from fellow racers describing simple solutions they have to the problem. I can think of two solutions; either racers who don't start the mains don't get any points for the night, so it is as though they didn't show up, or they are treated specially and even though they get points, they are treated as though they didn't show up. Note that so far this season, racers have recieved points even if they haven't run the mains, since we figured a racer would rather get some points than none, and there was no negative aspect with the scheme we were using at the start of the season.
Hopefully this description will clear up some confusion racers have about the way the heats are set up at the beginning of the night. This technique will no doubt be refined throughout the season (like addressing the above point), and will likely be used next summer as well. As mentioned before, the previous technique has broken down due to the awesome turnout we've been getting at racing.
Wow, excellent explanation!
READ IT PEOPLE. Take an intermission if you have to, but do try and read it and understand it.
Then, next time you walk away from the heat sheet thinking that Blake and Tom screwed you, just remember that it's hard to please everyone in all situations.
Thanks Tom!
Blake
well i think if you dont run in a main you shouldnt get any points,i think its only fair to do it that way because if your a regular d or c guy then you would be getting almost as many points as if you did run(when you didnt)besides we will have throw away races (for most people)you would be throwing away the night you didnt race in the main and just got the points for your qualifying,so you may aswell throw away a 0 that you should have got because you didnt run(the same as if you didnt show up for racing)
COntrary to Doug I believe that as stated in the weeks race results points are becoming a fun and competetive way of keeping the competition level up. I think that if you pay your 15.00 dollars and fore what ever reason be it sickness or broken parts you are entitled to the points in the position you qualified. Also that way you can save your throw away for a night you are truly absent.
All in all I believe it is only when you are talking "A" and "B" main drivers that gridding really comes into play. I was involved in a conversation with R. Fantetti where we agreed on the fact that the driving has just gotten more competive and the qualifying of the heats mirrored the finishing order of the mains.
Having help set up a few races this last summer I believe that what ever method used to set up the heats, it is done sincerly and with the best intentions in mind, never did I see us setting the heats up trying to screw someone over.
In short I am one of those drivers who sits near the bottom of the pile. Either I am passing drives in the "D" or I am being passed in the "C". By reading the post by Tom, median sounds like the more appropriate way to set up heats. I would hope that it can be done without to much hassle each week. And to mirror Blake's statment no matter how hard someone tries they will not be able to please everyone.
To sum this babble up I beleive that the decision made by the race directors have always been fair and I will continue to go along with them and their decisions.
RYY
So if Craig TQ'd, got upset for some reason, left the race before it started and never put his car on the track for the main, he would be sitting at home on the couch with 101 points on the night before the race is even run? That doesnt sound right.
In the Nick example if Doug ball qualified behind Nick in the B and finished in his original starting place then Nick would get more points even though he didnt run? That doesnt sound right either. Nick could have broke again and finished last, and no offense Nick but his precident that was set earlier that night indicated that he had a high likelyhood of in fact breaking and finishing last.
How about if you do not start the main you get last place points. I mean last out of the 30 or so racers. I dont care if you out qualified someone if you dont start the only points paying race of the night then too bad.
I think every race should count for points not just the main.
PS, I think the way heats are setup now is fine. Even though I got bumped out of the A main by a person who missed the week before which sucked but at least we have a quantified method.
I figured it would be more liek u dont get points for the position u qualified in just the points from teh bottom of the heat u qualified in ie. say u qualify pole in B main but were unable to run u should at least get the points from the B main but just in last place, IF two or more racers are unable to make it in the same heat then i believe qualifying should come into play for who gets last and second to last in that main and etc....
All in all i enjoy the way things are going now to be honest i just wanna race, and liek ryan (when i actually finish races lol) i pass those in D and am constantly pulling ocer in C lol...
well as i stated before you shouldnt get points if you dont run the main...............if you pay your 15 bucks and cant run the main thats your problem............why should you get points just cuzz you pay you could pay and not even get a qualifyer in and what you should still get points cuz you paid i could do that and get more points than alot of people and that aint right not getting points for not running a main is the same as if you didnt show ......................and a little off topic............ i remember last year watching chris morrison break or have a tantrum and leave without cornering the next race(as your suppose to) and i dont know how many people complained(me included) why was it ok for nick newroth to do the same(and still get points)thats like saying i cant corner i gotta fix my car if your gonna leave you should atleast have a substitute
is it not true points are suppose to be awarded to you according to where you finish in the main................................if so how do you think you deserve points if you didnt run in the main
Although that is completely understandable but what then are ur qualifiers just useless if u are unable to run one race outta four?? by no means do i agree with jsut packing up and leavign because u cant race thats just sheer poor sportsmanship, I do believe u shoudl stay and still do ur part but what about teh honest person who does stay even though he is unable to race as i believe u did doug when u were unable to finish any races. So if u stay and still corner and do what ur supposed why should u not be offered the points of last in ur heat?? I mean if u pack up and leave yea by all means u shoudl get last out of everyone just for childish and not wanting to play nemore cause it didnt go ur way.. I guess that could be a whole nother topic on track and racer etiquette!!!
You know what?
I could care less if I got points for last weekend or not! I didn't run in a main, hell, I didn't even get 1 decent qualifier in! How and why the hell am I "rewarded" (cough cough) and getting any points?
Write my week off, as if I wasn't even there!
I'll take pole position in the B qualifying this weekend because I'm 8th in points according to you guys!
Hey, with at least 3 top guys missing this week, I should even end up back in the A! LOL
Do what you want, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference.
Regards,
Nick
And Haddow, if I hadn't of broken, you were going down hard! You know it and I know it! :-)
By absolutely no means do i disagree with Doug the hardest part bout trying to make a decision about this kidna thing is that almost everyones point will make sense in one way or another......Wow I feel sorry for exec decision on this one :P
staying to corner even if you break and cant race.........is just good sportsmanship............. you dont get points for that............and well no i wouldnt expect points the points i did get i shouldnt have got and could hurt my average more than a 0 would as you dont count 0 in figuring out your average but a 76 they could have(not sure if they did or not)
"is it not true points are suppose to be awarded to you according to where you finish in the main................................if so how do you think you deserve points if you didnt run in the main"
This is extremely true but also isnt each heat treated as a completely different race??? mainly because we dont have room to run everyone at same time and that would be a joke lol but my point is that you are put in that single race for ur qualifying times therefore each heat is a race on its own meaning if u dont start u get last in teh race ie the heat u qualified for.
each heat is yes a qualifyer and your reward for winning or not winning is your posistion in the main.......................and your reward for what you do in the main is your points..............so just like if you dont run a qualifyer you dont get a posistion in the main so if you dont run in the main you shouldnt get points........................you shouldnt get rewarded for nothing
QuoteAnd Haddow, if I hadn't of broken, you were going down hard! You know it and I know it!
I know buddy you are fast except when you have to use broken rear pod plates..hmm maybe I shouldnt bring any back from NY...hehe.
Just using your misfortune as an example.
But u also have 2 other qulaifiers to make up for a missed one, say for instance if liek craig blake or tom or shane or anyon in A mains that are seperated so extremely closely through points. Maybe someone gets the littlest bit to close in last qualifier and breaks the car and either unable to fix in the amount of time or dont have the part if the get points for last of the 30 or so ppl they are pretty much drop out of the race entirely for points till the throwaways are calculated if we even have throwaways this year cause there another forum bout if throwaways shoudl be allowed..
BTW this is awesome we havnt had a thread like this in awhile, it reminds me I am alive, guess i wont have to cut myself tonight like I usually do, I can just read this thread. (i have issues dont i)
I think I'll interject here, although it is probably not necessary. This looks like a nice healthy debate where all sides that I can see are being represented.
Firstly, Nick, I was just using you as an example to represent the general case; we need a policy to cover your situation. It seems as though the best options are:
1) No points if you don't start the main or
2) Points for last place in the main you qualified for.
I have always felt that, if you've paid your money, you deserve to get more than 0 points. However, this is just my personal opinion, and there are valid arguments against my opinion, which is the whole intent of this thread.
Secondly, it can be very difficult to determine if someone started the main or not. Sometimes, people (like Nick and Limey this past week) let us know that they're not going to start the main. This gives us the option to either list them in the heats, or drop them out entirely. Other times, people take off without letting us know. And, other times, people are scrambling in the pits, trying to fix their car, but are unable to make the start of the race, and other times, people start the race, but crash and break their car before they complete one lap.
These are all possible scenarios about how someone doesn't start a main. We need to either draw an arbitrary line somewhere to say you either started the main or didn't start the main, and keep track of that at the end of the night so points can be assigned properly, or keep up with the current scenario. Previously, we were very inconsistent, since we used to elimniate people if they told us they weren't going to run, otherwise they got points for the main.
And, some people may be new to racing and might not understand this last point completely; I'm sorry that I assumed everyone knew what went on.
Every racer will typically run in 4 races during the night. The first 3 are called heats, and the last one is called the main, even though race announcers often confuse the terms. The first 3 races of the night are all just qualifying races, and your best result of the 3 is used only to determine where you will start in the last race, the main. Once the mains are run, your final position in the main, and only that final position in the main (with the exception of the TQ racer) is used to dtermine the points you get for that night. The TQ driver gets one bonus point. It is this result that we use to determine which qualifier you run in the next week. This is unlikely to change, even though there are some problems with this approach. What we're discussing is what we do with the results of this approach.
And no Jody, as was said by others, if you don't run your main, you finish last in it, and currently that's how your points are assigned. If more than one racer doesn't start their main, the finishing order of those racers is ordered behind all finishers in their qualifying order.
There are many other great points being raised in this thread; keep it going, and try to consider the problems that I've raised.
well there is throwaways and there are in effect now by looking at the point list so it wouldnt matter,and doesnt mattersame goes for getting points when your not racing in the main ...........it really doesnt matter because of the trowaways(unless you did it to many times)and who really cares im only keeping track of points so i can rub it in gerry and glens face at the end of the year so i can rattle them for summer so when the only racing that matters is here(nitro)
Aswell as me i am looking at points to try and stay ahead of my uncle and after me missing a main but remained and marshalled. From getting the points from last in the main i qualified for it keeps in the temporary run for points (before throwaways) All in All i dont see why it would be so bad to give ppl last place in the main they qualified for if they dont start because everyone in teh heat will get more points than u including the bump-up and so the vast majority of ppl only get a difference between like 1-7 points different as if they ran the main therefore keeping tehir average at what the driver still consistantly remains.
Quoteyou don't run your main, you finish last in it, and currently that's how your points are assigned. If more than one racer doesn't start their main, the finishing order of those racers is ordered behind all finishers in their qualifying order.
sounds OK to me, although being the main race I still think if a guy in the B didnt even start (ie cross the start finish line once), and he is awarded more points than I did finishing in the middle of the C I would have bit of an issue with that.
Although I guess you could argue that your qualifiers have more or less already determined your maximum points for the night (bump-ups aside as only one spot can bump).
ok just for you then i will go along with giving points to people who didnt even reallly earn them !but only for you..............lol like i said it really doesnt matter to me as my points race is only between a few people
Quote..............lol like i said it really doesnt matter to me as my points race is only between a few people
I hope you are not including me in this group, cuz, like, I am way ahead of you. LOL
OUCH!! Haddow with the burn lol anyways cudos on the thread Tom cleared up alot of questions and brought som pizaz to the forum lol.....Some very long needed pizaz
And thank you doug for the extensive debate :D
o...........you on the list im already done with glen.................next is gerry then im commin for you.................it will be a preveiw of the summer to follow
I would also like to re-focus the discussion a little. This talk about if you deserve points if you don't run in the main is beside the point (ha ha, get it?) when it comes to determining the starting order for the next week of racing. Should our example of Nick end up starting in the C next week (which is what the current policy would probably have happen, except for the fact several top guys are planning on missing this coming week), or should his finishing position not count, and he gets sorted in based on his median finishing position?
If so, where do you draw the line between someone not starting? Clearly there is a difference between someone who says that they aren't going to run in the main and someone who starts the main but breaks on the first lap, but as I mentioned before, it can be very difficult to know where to draw the line. There is also the convenience factor in all of this, which has in part contributed to this very issue that I'd like help figuring out.
anytime (kukkiyukkuk)...........i just like to stir it, :twisted:
i think if you are on the stand and hit the throttle when the buzzer goes your in for some points......atleast last in that main.......as for if you miss a week you should drop down a heat.........like when craige and jody and blake miss this weekend they should be in the b the next week no real reason for my opinion just think it keeps things entertaining
I think a drivers car should cross the start line under it's own power at least once during the Main event to collect the points for last place in that Main race.
We should only get points for a show in the Main, no points for heats.
It would be interesting to get points for each heat race in addition to the Main event points... wouldn't that mix things up a bit :-) and let's give some points out for most specatular crash! and extra points if your motor starts on fire during a race or your batteries blow-up on the track, and deduct points for bad mouthing corner marshals too! lol
Hahah its Chris :P
And Tom i dunno how well this would work but median would be the best way possible because then in a couple weeks u wont have craig blake and jody trying to qualify outta the D :S I think it should go towards Median but find a way to maybe keep the bump up in that heat seeing how they earned it. But that throws a whole new form of difficulty into preparing the heats but by going by medians it throws alot more difficulty to advance from D,C, or B either way u go theres gonna be complications aswell as likes and dislikes. Personally i have no idea whatsoever lol cause its either race in main u finished in (then have some days when a A racer is away or even a B or whatever have to qualify from the D) or use the median have much more averaged and much more competitive heats but then finishing order may become repition because it would be more difficult to bump up and remain.
Well if we have decided (or do decide) that a person who qualifies gets last place points in the main they qualified for in a main they dont start then I think we should, to be consistent and keep it simple, also use that points paying spot they "earned" as a seeding position for the next weeks heat setup. IMHO of course.
Also I believe there shoudl be restrictions for instance if it is a completely legitament excuse u are unable to make the main but still remain and play ur part (if possible ie no family emergency, explosive diarrhea and so on.) Otherwise i believe u should be awarded a zero if there is no justification for ur missing the main.
hey Dave, how many points for a motor fire?
Yea I wanna know trhe deduction for cursing at a corner marshal!!
After rethinking the "not starting a main thing", there comes another case that if we said OK you dont start the main then you finish at the very bottom of the entire pack (which part of me thinks is the truely fair option since we onlyt divide the races up because we cant start all 30 cars on the track at once)...here is the scenario.
Say I for family reasons, cant stay all night at racing and have to leave after the 3rd qualifier but I still wanted to come out, support the club and have some fun. So I leave before the mains, i would be OK with getting last place OVERALL..except if that is the case in points does that mean I would have to be seeded in last spot in the D Heat for the next week because I happen to be a B or A level driver but had to leave the race for any of a 1000 valid reasons.
I like the idea of not starting the mains gives you last overall but dont like the idea that it would by default seed you last overall in the next weeks heats.
So giving out points based on your qualifying effort or placing you at the bottom of the pack has both pros and cons, just like every other aspect of this debate.
Hey Everybody
Your boss called and said he needs you to do a little work today at some point LOL
why do today what you can put off till tommorow
well this is probably what I will do tomorrow too. hehehe
Like I said, I don't think I should receive any points for last weekend's race, as I didn't run a main.
Like I said, I was lucky to even get a half ass qualifier in!
And as far as I know, we don't receive anything for qualifying or for that matter, get any sort of bonus if you happen to win all 3 qualifiers.
Further to that, if anyone has a complaint about me not sticking around, or they feel I'm not contributing, then be sure to bring it up in person this weekend and we will discuss it further.
Regards,
Nick
:o
Doug, it depends on the severity of the motor fire as to how many points you get.
50.3 pts for large explosion with spectator injurys
30.1 pts for billowing toxic smoke resulting in vomiting corner marshals
22.9 pts for medium sized carpet fire
Painted on flames don't count.
Dave Ox.
kukkiyukkuk, deduction for cursing at corner marshal:
You lose one throw out night and you get one free thrownout the door night :-)
There is a problem from both sides (E or D main to the A main) when someone is placed poorly because of last week's placement and/or poor qualifying.
Take for instance this summer when Jody was running in the D main with us because of his poor qualifying. The guys in the D have no chance (other than Jody breaking or continuing to suck) of getting first in the race because they are running with an B main driver - uh A main. Jody is probably frustrated because he has had a cruddy day of qualifying as his car broke 27 times that day (or he got his left/right mixed up again). The idea of having different heats is to have you race against guys (and hopefully girls too one day!) at your level. When an over qualified driver with bad luck is in your heat it takes any competition away from the drivers in that heat and some of the fun.
I think a similar situation happens when you bump down a driver into a heat he normally wouldn't drive in. Its not as drastic with a bump down one heat. There is a significant level of difference in the heats and it would be frustrating for someone like Nick who runs in the A and B mains to be running in the C where there is little competition. Granted its only for the qualifying but the way we run our qualifiers makes racing as fun and competative as a mains race (IFMAR bites!) When you put someone who is obviously more qualified it takes some of the fun out of it.
I think the median is the easiest way to do it. Personally I'd rather run where I ran the week before rather than my median. For example when I first started with the touring cars in the summer I was bouncing off the boards, etc. Then I started getting a little better and found I was able to run in the C mains. Problem was I was often stuck in traffic or someone would keep going hard into the corner behind me and then through me. When I managed to get into the C mains I wanted to stay there because I knew I had the skill to run in the C but since I had run so long in the D my average would pull me back down there where I would have to fight with traffic again. Of course fighting with traffic is a good way to learn to drive but it can take some of the fun out of racing. For guys coming up through the ranks its nice to have "earned" your spot in the heat above you. Of course as you get better you will average your way out but there is more frustration with that method. Just something you guys who run in the A all the time might not have thought about.... Thankfully its just for the qualifiers and not the main itself. Like I said thought the median is probably the easier more trouble free way of doing it though.
As for points...
I think you should get the points where you place in the race of course. If you start a main and break then you get last place in your heat. If someone breaks after you he got more laps in so he places just in front of you.
I guess the problem here is what is considered starting a race. Is it going to be getting your car physically on the track, passing over the start line or completing a single lap? I think I would lean towards passing the start line. If you choose physically on the track you could just put a broken car on there and get your points. If you do it after one lap someone may smoke into you on the first lap and break your car depriving you of your points.
I think if you get a DNF you should get points in that heat. If you get a DNS you should get points at the bottom of the rest of the racers (eg after last in the E or D main). That way you get your points even if you DNS. More likely than not they are going to end up being your throw away points because they will be your lowest score unless you miss too many then it counts as part of your average. Hey if you want to pay $15 to get points even if you aren't there its only going to help the club out ;)
QuoteHey if you want to pay $15 to get points even if you aren't there its only going to help the club out
Ya can I pay 15 buck for the race I will be away for. I usually finish in the upper B or lower A so 90 points will do thanks.
I dont want some guy named Dog Ball beating my ass in points while I am out of the action.
so you mean i dont even have to own a car to get points just pay 15 bucks
QuoteIf you get a DNS you should get points at the bottom of the rest of the racers (eg after last in the E or D main). That way you get your points even if you DNS. More likely than not they are going to end up being your throw away points because they will be your lowest score unless you miss too many then it counts as part of your average.
yes but this is a double edged sword. This would mean that and A driver could get a DNS in the main, get last place oevrall and have to qualify in the D or E the next week. If he had just not come to racing then he would be in the A the next week becasue of his median points. Then as you say it would suck for the E drivers to have to run with an A driver.
I think there is no really good solution and that our current heat setup scenario is as good as it gets and paying out points for last place in the main you qualify for, in the case of a main DNS, would solve the problem of the next weeks seed.
This is Andrew wife Petra, Andrew as me to take a look at this topic because of my background
From reading all your comments and your explainations, using your point standing seems the most logical. However, your calculation have to be accuate. I was looking at your stats and everyones possible points was different. Everyone ratios should be based off the total number of races that could have been attended not just the ones they have attended. Therefore everyone should have the same number of possible points.
The other topic that was also running in forum was that your having a problem with guys skipping out on cornering, why not put in fines if they don't corner when they are ment to or at least find a sub to do it for them. Your always trying to raise money or you can just deduct points off.
The possible points column isn't that important, and it is working correctly. It is indicating after 10 weeks of racing are up the most points you could possibly have when counting 5 weeks of points. Since we've raced 6 weeks so far, that means that one of the 6 weeks results so far in the 5 best out of 10 series must be used. Therefore, everyone's most possible could very well be different.
People leaving early isn't a big issue at this point in time, and I don't think it should be escilated into a bigger issue than it really is. If we raise awareness of the issue, it will likely get people to think twice about it, and if they still want to leave, it's probably better for everyone if they do. We don't want to keep people sticking around that are miserable; we are afterall just playing with our toy cars.
I was hoping this discussion would help figure out some better solutions to setting up the heats at the beginning of the night; unfortunately the real discussion covered other topics that aren't as challenging.
QuoteI was hoping this discussion would help figure out some better solutions to setting up the heats at the beginning of the night; unfortunately the real discussion covered other topics that aren't as challenging.
That was because your essay at the beginning of this thread described our system in detail and some of this discussion has elabrated on that, although I think it didnt go as far as you'd like because concensus is that the system is as good as it is going to get. If someone had something constructive to add it would have been done by now. No system will be perfect (read make everyone happy all the time) and ours is close so lets just go with what we have.
Tom,
To echo Jodys statment; the way things are is fine. I think since you took the time to explain the set up and the differences and difficulties, it has cleared up a bunch of issues. Again I know when ever I was involved in helping set up the qualifying it was done it the best interest of the club at the same time trying to please as many people as possible. Tom and Blake keep up the good work as you have my full support in the decisions you have made thus far.
RYY
Quote from: "Tom"I was hoping this discussion would help figure out some better solutions to setting up the heats at the beginning of the night; unfortunately the real discussion covered other topics that aren't as challenging.
Hmmmm. Obviously I wasn't clear on this statement; it does not clearly relfect what I was trying to say.
My intent was to inform everyone of what we did, to eliminate the inevitable whining when people are put in a race other than they wanted to be in. I was never really intending to consider a different basic policy.
What I was hoping for though was some guidance about some other subtle points that I raised, such as Nick and Limey's situation when setting up heats next week. We need a general solution to this inevitable situation, regardless of their personal opinion, since we're trying to make policy rules. There are some other subtalties that are also not terribly clear that will take a fair bit of prose to explain.
I guess the message I'll take from this is now that people have had a chance to think it over, it's much more difficult to come up with a good solution to the problem than it at first appears, and that if you aren't in the race you were hoping for, it's for a good reason, not because someone just doesn't like you.
I think a big part of the issue is that we did it based on the previous week's results all summer then there was a change over from that method to the one we are currently using. I'm assuming its because there are more people that are less regular than in the summer? People were probably caught off guard by the new system. Now that we've established how it works I don't think it will be a big deal. Like most people have been saying you can't please everyone all the time. Besides I don't think most people relize how much time and effort it takes to take care of this stuff for the club. I think instead of getting all pissed of we should be saying "thank you" a little more often...
Thank you! ;-)
Now, can we finally move on?
Nope - its today's only active topic so it must remain ALIVE!
it's amazing how much ppl write on this board. i mean wow, the time it takes to write and read all the threads...........
it still alive!!
I came to a realization last week while setting up the heats what one of the major problems is with the current system.
I'm not sure if we'll do anything about it, because as you can tell, it's a difficult problem to solve. However, I thought I'd explain the problem so that people understand the issue, so everyone understands why they're in the race they're in.
We could likely solve the problem through a process of normalization; perhaps we'll end up doing that.
When setting up heats, I have two lists. One list contains your finishing position from last week, the other is a measure of your overall ranking in the club. Note that I said "a measure;" by no means are any metrics used definitive, or even fair. They're just consistent, which is what matters most at this point in time.
So, let's take the example of last week. The previous weeks results had 20 guys, and so far we've had 40 people running. This means one list had 20 people, and the other had your overall ranking out of 40 people, and 28 guys showed up. If you missed the previous week and you were 30th overall, your overall ranking will automatically put you last in the D. However, since you're 30th overall out of 40 racers, you may very well believe you should be in the C, and I would agree with you.
The solution to this (as alluded to above) is called normalization. You would take your position, divide by the total, then multiply by the number of people showing up this week. So, someone ranked 30th out of 40 racers showing up on a night with 28 would be in position:
30 / 40 * 28 = 21 overall. That would have put your ranking last in the C (before people were inserted), rather than last overall (before people were inserted).
I think this is a much better approach, but it's just one more step that can't be done 'till everyone has signed up for racing.
If I can remember to bring my calculator, maybe I'll try it this coming week. But, this means that everyone must be prompt when it comes to signing up, since there is quite a bit of effort involved.
The situation could be described in more detail, but I'm supposed to be working now, and hopefully most people can figure out the problem without more details.
Again Tom,
Thank you for the explaination and formula discriptions. As stated earlier you are never going to make everyone happy but by atleast making an attempt we really can not ask for much more. If and when the situation arises that a possible a or b main driver is qualifyinf in the D due to the fact that he or she has missed several weeks of racing it should then be up to that driver to do his best and qualify for a better main position, regardless of how reckless and awful my driving is. The only person who could be blamed for a low qualifying position would be the individual who has not shown up consistantly. A good example of this would be Chris Morrison who missed several weeks of racing and started his first night in the "D" heats, and successfully pulled himself out of there to place in a better qualifying position the week after and subsequently a better main placing in each race. The method may be flawed but it is working, you are doing a great job Tom don't change a thing.
RYY