Bad Battery Buzz

[WhoDoYouThink]

So far, I've checked 4 cells in one of my two new for Summer Season 4200 packs. The numbers so far are not good at all!

As you said Kurk,  it's a time consuming affair, taking just over an hour per cell on my Hi IQ2 at a 6 amp charge, 35 amp discharge, just like on the labels.

I'll have more info to contribute later.

[jarrodH]

is there someone that could test out my 2 packs. as i dont know how to actually do it right..

[korgae]

Im not sure what you guys are doing to test a cells, if you are attempting to simulate the #'s on the packs without the same equipment we use ( CE turbo matcher 35's in a temp controlled environment) then you will NEVER see the same #'s that are on the cells. No offense but this is the kinda voodoo I was talking about, a 50 or a 200 dollar discharger is not going to really tell you the data you need, It's point blank not the same as the 2000 dollar  maching machines that we use. especially once a pack is soldered, the #'s will be different almost imediateltly.

A bad cell is just that, a bad cell. the easiest way to determine a bad cell is to take a voltmeter and test each cell. for voltage.

Whe these cells go bad or are defective it is the voltage that goes bad.

Lets assume the pack is @ discharged to 5.40V ( .90 per cell)  if you see any cells that read well under .90 or if most cases a dead cell will read 0 volts then that is a bad cell.

People that have complained about having less power then another pack ( like haddow) has a bad cell, people that read to much into these personal dischargers or mathematical equations to simulate 35 amps and come up with #'s that do not match the pack #'s. do not necessary have a defective cell or pack.

If you want to truly cycle and evalueate a pack to see if the #'s hold up, find a CE 30, 35  of GFX and do a proper cycle on the pack, the#'s will all be within a 10 -15 seconds of the #'s on the packs the voltage will be bang on and the AIR will be slightly higher, why? because of barz/ solder and the longer leads on the GFX charger.

CE stuff is the best, that is why we use it and that is why it is the standard in the industy.

I will speak with Blake this week and get this figured out for all of you asap.

Thanks in advance.

[haddow]

Yes this is getting complicated. I dissagree it takes hours of cycling with special equipment. Also a post or two here may indicate they are trying to mimic numbers printed on the label but believe me this is not what the heck is going on here.
Treat the battery just like it is stated in the SMC instructions then just use a discharge tray and voltmeter, no voodoo or hours of cycling. When 2 cells die 4 minutes before the others, they are dead.

Even using a charger to discharge the whole battery rather than individual cells will also give an indication when you use your voltmeter.

There is also no voodoo in my opinion, just bad cells, the many bad cells seem to be good for about 1800 to 2000 mAh compared to the 4000 and over of the cell next to it in the same pack. So at the 3 minute mark a cell is at 0.5 volts while the one beside it is still at 1.1.

[WhoDoYouThink]

Korgae and Jody,

I should clarify that I'm not hoping to get the same numbers as what is stated on the cell label.
I'm simply using the 6 amp charge and 35 amp discharge rates to set the baseline to carry out my full battery test on my Victor HI-IQ2.

I've been involved with R/C car racing long enough to know that I'll get different test results using two different charger/discharger of the same manufacturer, let alone hope to achieve the same results as some high dollar, fancy smancy charger/discharger run under computer room tolerances!
I do however know that my HI-IQ2 has been set up exactly the same way, with exactly the same cooling and exactly the same power supply each and every time.
I know my HI-IQ2 gives very repeatable results.

The point is, of the 4 cells out of this brand new this year 4200 6 cell pack I've tested, the run time, the average voltage, the punch voltage, the maximum accepted capacity, and the capacity expended are all consistently low.

I tested this very same 6 cell pack May 1st of this year under the same exact conditions as I did today with the single cells.
Brand new, freshly assembled, this pack gave me the following results:
- punch voltage of 8.34V
- 21 ohms of internal resistance
- 648 secs of run time
- it took in 4700 mah and gave back 3580 mah
- average voltage was 7.50V

I don't consider yesterday's individual cell test results:
-  punch voltage ranging between 1.13V to 1.20V
- 333 seconds to 384 seconds of run time
- 4700 - 5000 mah in and gave back 3200 - 3700 mah
- average voltage for these same exact individual cells ranging between 1.00V to 1.05V per cell to be what I consider as acceptable.

The only results which are consistent are the internal resistance numbers, ranging from 8.9 ohms to 10.5 ohms per cell between the 4 tested cells.

These cells have not been abused, in fact I've tried to only used them once per race day, and we've raced less than 10 times so far this year.

Looking back through my test result data, I did testing in October and November of last year, and again in January of this year on 5 other 4200, 4 cell packs at a 6 amp charge and a 35 amp discharge.
The numbers on all of those 5 packs were far superior to what I've seen on these most recently purchased 4200 cells:
- punch voltage of the 5 packs tested  ranged consistently between 5.28V and 5.31V over the 3 different testing sessions.
- average voltage ranged between 4.70V and 4.80V
- run times were consistently between 400 secs and 430 secs.
Note, these packs were also raced every Saturday night in between tests!

I'm not using any VooDoo here boys.
I'm using repeatable and consistent testing procedures.
The results, at least in my case so far with the cells I've tested indicate there is, at least in my opinion, and obviously the opinion of others, a serious quality control/consistency issue.

Like I said, when I've finished testing this 6 cell pack individually , I'll test my other less than 10 race day old pack and see what I get for the results and let you all know.

As has been pointed out previously, I'm not the only one noticing performance issues with this/these batch(s) of matched 4200 cells.

Regards,
Nick

[SgRddY]

Yes this is getting complicated. I dissagree it takes ours of cycling with special equipment. Also a post or two here may indicate they are trying to mimic numbers printed on the label but believe me this is not what the heck is going on here.
Treat the battery just like it is stated in the SMC instructions then just use a discharge tray and voltmeter, no voodoo or hours of cycling. When 2 cells die 4 minutes before the others, they are dead.

Even using a charger to discharge the whole battery rather than individual cells will also give an indication when you use your voltmeter.

There is also no voodoo in my opinion, just bad cells, the many bad cells seem to be good for about 1800 to 2000 mAh compared to the 4000 and over of the cell next to it in the same pack. So at the 3 minute mark a cell is at 0.5 volts while the one beside it is still at 1.1.

I agree with Jody completely.  This is the exact problem that I am having, one or 2 cells in a pack will die minutes before the others.  I don't have a Turbo CE 30 or 35 but my discharging trays give a really good indication of which cell has voltage and which cell has next to no voltage after each race.  I marked my bad cells with marker to confirm this finding time after time.

Ken

[korgae]

When 2 cells die 4 minutes before the others, they are dead.

.

Correct, This is a "dead" cell. I think we are talking about the same thing in two different ways.  That cell has a internal short and will pull the rest of the pack down.

I am agreeing with you 100% on your statement.

Cells with internal shorts in them are easy to find before charging by checking the resting voltage with a volt meter. ( as I described in my last post)  the other way is to use a digit discharge tray as a indicator. your all right, the bad cell will finish way before the other good cells in the pack.

What I mean by voodoo is not towards the users, but more towards some of the claims that manufactures are making on certain products that are on the market right now. Some discharge trays ( or chargers) are good and others are not and all about marketing hype. It is hard to tell someone that just forked out $$ on a discharger or charger that it really doesn't do all that it is claimed to do in a accurate way.

Hard to hear sometimes and very hard to tell someone sometimes.

I don't want to turn this into debate thread and I am not trying to insult anyones intelligence. All I am trying to do is pass along info on what we have encountered in the past, answer questions and try to get this mess sorted.

Thanks

Korgae

[Grinder]

We're not talking about our cells running at 1.220V @35 instead of 1.223V @35 as the label says.  We are talking about multiple cells that are dead.  Cells that after a few days with a fresh charge and no use have negligible (.4V, etc) voltage on them and no capacity.  I have batteries that crap out after 20 mAh and the others in the pack go for 2000 mAh +.  Bad cells plain and simple.  No voodoo here - simple science.

The only reason I spent hours on cycling, discharging, etc was to prove to myself without a shadow of a doubt that there was a problem with my cells and not any of my test equipment or procedures before I made claims of bad cells.  If I wanted to I can test them at a national standards Calibration lab but that seems overkill but if we need to go to that extent to prove that these obviously bad cells are indead that then pack up your batteries boys and we'll measure those cells to the nanovolt if you want.

[Blake]

Hey all,

Just got off the phone with Korgae.  We discussed the situation in detail.  I will give the full report later tonight as I'm in meetings for the rest of the day.

Blake

[haddow]

Hey Blake

Thanks for handling the issue. I found a use for my "not quite perfect" cells.....Ballast for my LiPO and adding weight to make my Pan Car the same weight as Brian and Phils...

[SgRddY]

with the way you are using those cells, you will never get your cells trade in for good ones.....lol.......

[Grinder]

So whats going on - oh the anticipation!  Tell me you're not still in your meeting!

[Blake]

Hey all,


I talked to Korgae for a while yesterday to try and get our minds around this whole thing.


Manufacturer vs Matcher
I believe that everyone in the club is aware of this now, but I'll explain it one more time here.  The cells that we racers end up using in our cars are actually built by a company called "IB", or Intellect Battery".  They're built in some humungous factory in China or something like that.  Then they're shipped to a myriad of different battery "matchers" like SMC, Trinity, Pro-Match, etc....  These matchers test each individual cell several times, stick labels on them with the test results, and then group them together into packs of similar test results.  We racers then end up with these "matched" packs.


The Sad Truth of the Battery War
The current batch of cells we received came from the absolute newest (and highest performance) batch of IB cells.  There are likely hundreds of thousands of these cells all over North America sitting in testing equipment at all the various matchers (SMC, Trinity, Pro-Match, etc...).  This batch seems to be VERY sensitive and has resulted in more than normal quantities of dead cells.

The sad truth of the matter is that these cells are almost considered disposable after just a few runs.  Sadly, racers around the world prefer top notch performance in exchange for any sort of lifespan.  We saw this in Cleveland last year as all the top racers would run a brand new IB 4200 pack for EVERY SINGLE qualifier and main.

This is obviously NOT the type of cell that a club like IROCC wants for its members.  I've already talked to Korgae about other cells types for future purchases.


SMC's Warranty
When batteries have issues, and racers complain, it's the matcher that ends up taking the blame.  It's easy to blame the matcher because it's their label that is on the cell.  This makes it tough for the matcher because they cannot return the battery to IB for replacement.  IB's "warranty" ends as soon as a racer solders the first bar onto the cell.

SMC has always maintained their own warranty to protect racers against flawed cells.  Ultimately this costs SMC money as they have to replace cells to the racers, but they cannot get any reimbursement from IB.


Process For Replacement of Dead Cells
Many of you have probably done this already, and it's not rocket science, but this is the process:

Charge your batteries as per the instructions in the box.  Run a race and then discharge the pack at high amperage down to 5.4V for the entire pack.  Then put the pack in a discharge tray and immediately note the status of the tray lights.  If certain lights do not activate, or if certain lights go out much earlier than the rest of the pack, then that indicates those cells are bad.  Mark these cells with an "X" or something and put them aside so that we can group them all together.

We need everyone to follow this process and honestly mark each individual cell that fails this test.  And yes, I know most of you have basically done this already.  The thing we're trying to avoid, is racers falling in a mass-hysteria situation where they will blame poor driving or a bad raceday on their batteries.  Yes, there definitely seems to be a major issue with these batteries, but we want to avoid them being used as a scapegoat for other factors.  So please use the above process, mark all your bad cells, and we'll get them grouped together to get an idea of numbers.

Once this is done, I can get a ballpark number to Korgae and he can arrange replacement cells through SMC.


Charger Issues
Although I find this hard to believe, it *may* be possible that some cheaper chargers may produce "non-clean" power and damage the cells while charging.  Intuitively this seems crazy to me, but I don't really know the inner workings of all the chargers out there.  And, if these cells are really this delicate, then maybe there is something here.


Blake

[Matt S]

nice report

you pass grade 9 lol

but on another note

trinity is matching the new EP batteries

performance a tad lower than that of IB but better lifespan

imo

[Grinder]

No one ever blamed SMC.  I think most of us know that the cells are manufactured by IB and SMC mearly matches them.  With the new battery chemistry and the extremly flakey but powerful low use cells is matching even worth while?  The packs are out of balance after their first or second cycle so why bother?

I certainly hope that the cells being sold are good for at least a single season of racing.  Thats a total of about 30 cycles which is extremely low for this type of battery chemistry (which is typically 500 cycles).  That is a sad fact of competitive racing where racers need to buy batteries at least twice a year now.  Having cells that perform for two three or four cycles is not acceptable - they may as well not be rechargable.

I'm not interested in replacing single cells.  I've had three cells go bad since last week which means I have gone from three working packs of six to none.  I was extremely frustrated running (not racing for sure) the main with a junk battery pack.  I'm not about to waste my time rebuilding "matched" battery packs with unmatched cells just to have to do the same thing the next week when more of the cells continue to fail.  

If these are four cycle "rechargeable" cells we should have been notified of the uselessness of the cells.  Not a single person in the club would have purchased them.  Who cares if they are 2 volts per cell if they don't last more that a few cycles.

How long are we going to have to wait to get replacements?  If this isn't a bad batch of cells and this is the nature of the beast (to get only a few cycles out of the batteries) is SMC going to send us another batch a few weeks later?

If this is normal and there are hundreds of thousands of these cells all over North America IB is going to fold like a deck of cards.  No one but the top racers would use these cells and they are all sponsored.  IB will either have to recall all the cells or go out of business (which may be the case if they need to recall all of them).

If SMC can replace the batteries with GP4300 cells or something reliable I would be interested.  At this point in time I'm not able to run competatively because my batteries are junk.  I'm not interested in wasting time with these IB cells that are unreliable or patching packs with other sketchy cells.  I spent a lot of money on what was supposed to be a quality battery.  If I can't have what I paid for or a suitable replacement I want my money back so I can go and purchace reliable cells and race for the rest of the season.