New ROAR Rules

[SgRddY]

now...why the hell would you say that twice kurk?  lol.......

[Grinder]

.... weird.... oh well you get the point.  I mean this really is nothing more that thoughts on the subject - what happens is really in the hands of the exec - they've done us proud and their well thought out decisions have brought the club to the place it is now.  Not everyone is thrilled by what happens and usually the discontent is the greatest before any decision is actually made.  I think the changes I've seen in the last two years have been fairly sensitive to what the club members want - the new 19T TC class, open motors for 12th scale, etc.

This is a good place to discuss so they have as much info and your concerns as possible to make their decision.

[Tom]

I think the changes I've seen in the last two years have been fairly sensitive to what the club members want - the new 19T TC class, open motors for 12th scale, etc.

Although this isn't the place to discuss 1/12 scale, I for one (and I'm not the only one) have always supported handout motors in particular, and I've liked the handout batteries too.  Compare how close racing is this season in 1/12 scale to how things were last season.

The wide-open equipment is, in my opinion, a significant contributor to low turn-outs, since it is always frustrating for most racers to compete with others pocketbooks rather than skill.

I will always advocate for hand-out equipment.  I've been there, done that (like a few other members) and have seen what happens with wide-open racing and hand-out racing.

[jarrodH]

im with tom on the handout stuff, then it all come down to your driving/ and/or your maintenence..

IMO this would be the way to do the brushless/lipo thing, get it wherever you want, but you have to have this battery, and this motor/esc..

[RC51]

If we said that we must go with a spec setup, then those club members (there ar 6-8 that I know of) who already have units wouldn't be able to use them. Limit the motor wind (ie 10.5 for super stock - what used to be 19T touring) but let people have choices in their hobby. Besides, in that class skill SHOULD be up. I think there is more variance in the tuning options than there is across the brands anyway although we are just compiling that data now. Keep the spec or single motor brand for stock if that is a problem for racers.

P.

[jarrodH]

well there doesnt seem to to be a way to please everybody, there have been numerour suggestions, and ways to deal with this and everyone gets shot down by somebody..

tc is just gettin to complicated and spendy for me.

[Matt S]

how about spec motors for BL and open ESCs

[RC51]

Personally speaking, I am not for spec anything outside of stock. It would be akin to saying that a racer can use a K19 but not the Hemi and certainly not a Checkpoint or C2. Even in stock TC we'd need to ask ourselves why. Leveling the playing field is a bit fallacious even in this class since there are no spec versions, the endbell can't be locked and any esc can be programmed if you have the capacity. Similarly, the tuning options are varied if you know what to look for.

P.

[BigDaddyT]

Yea - and I can/have gotten a stock motor to draw 90A+ at 6V... thats over 500W.... until the smoke starts to come out.  The specs on most of the motors I've seen have been around 85W IIRC.  Is this at a lower voltage?  There has to be some standard for loading otherwise you can pull pretty much any numbers.  I'm assuming your comparision is 120W with a stock brushed motor and 130W with the brushless on the same system?

85W @ 5.0v is common. We dyno @ 7.0v where 120W is a common baseline.

I'll run a 17.5 on the same equipment as soon as I can get my hands on one.

[Grinder]

If we said that we must go with a spec setup, then those club members (there ar 6-8 that I know of) who already have units wouldn't be able to use them. Limit the motor wind (ie 10.5 for super stock - what used to be 19T touring) but let people have choices in their hobby. Besides, in that class skill SHOULD be up. I think there is more variance in the tuning options than there is across the brands anyway although we are just compiling that data now. Keep the spec or single motor brand for stock if that is a problem for racers.

P.

I'm suggesting we run a stock brushless motor - most people I know of that have brushless systems are modified brushless - not stock.  There is far to much variance between one stock brushless and another.  By having a handout motor it keeps the racing balanced.  This is crucial for stock especially when we are throwing new variables in.  Most ESCs people have can be used - just not those that give an advantage by allowing the timing to be changed in software.  That way people that already have brushless systems can still use them and we keep racing competative with hand out motors instead of letting people buy the next higher performing "stock" motor.

Some ESCs are easily programable and others are very difficult to hack.  I'm sure almost any ESC can be hacked but if you are going that far to cheat....  

If we are going to open pan from 19T to whatever ESC (eg advancing the timing) then we may as well go modified and run whatever.  I think there needs to be restrictions somehow to keep it competative and keep interest in the class.

[RC51]

I don't know about this line of logic, personally speaking. I mean, look at the variance in current brushed stock motors. There is significant data to suggest vast differences that can currently be validated. I believe BigDaddyT has 1000s of dyno runs logged to show this. Even Brian and I saw fair power, RPM and torque differences with roughly 30 runs of different stock motors on the Robi.

The same cannot be said just yet about the brushless variance as the data does not exist. If it can, please post the data to back up the claims. A number of people have raised this (me included) but the data just isn't out there yet. Several manufacturers still do not even have the 17.5 in their hands so I don't know how this can be proven beyond speculation as the plural of anecdote isn't data!

[RC51]

BTW, what do you mean by cheat? Several sensorless motors have pc interfaces to affect timing legitimately through USB and several pins on the harnesses for the others have serial interfaces. Consider Tekin and Castle Creations to name two.

[Shawn68z]

After reading the posts again, (all 8 pages), I think this discussion must be broken up into 2 threads.

-Allowing Lithium based batteries (LiPo, LiMn, and Li-Poly)

-Allowing brushless systems in TC.

The way I see it is they are two completely seperate topics.

Shawn.

[Tom]

-Allowing Lithium based batteries (LiPo, LiMn, and Li-Poly)

What's the difference between LiPo and Li-Poly?

[SgRddY]

Tom...Tom....Tom...... ok, he messed up....again.....lol