New ROAR Rules

[haddow]

5 classes is 1-2 too many IMHO.

J

[RC51]

If we run brushed and brushless in the same heats, the software can separate the results into separate classes if racers are concerned. So, let's say that hypothetically we run 17.5, 27T NiMh and LiPo in the same heat. For points/whatever, the software separates out the 17.5 from the 27T. But does this really matter? The change is inevitable and we're just delaying it.

Maybe we could simply test it for the month of April, let's say, or, heaven forbid, have a carpet "test-and-tune-your-TC/Pro10-choice-before-it's-outdoor-season" night and figure it out! Maybe even look at it on a spread sheet to see the standard deviations, whatever.

Phil

[BigDawg]

we should all just start going to the source to buy our cars they come already to run and really cheap and for the batteries, one word!!! alkaline

[RC51]

I forgot to mention one important thing: racers will need to be conscious of availability of service, support and parts for products that are being made redundant. For example, within less than one year of a new wind of motor coming on the market (hemi K and C2 19T) Trinity dropped the armatures from their inventory. Similarly, look what has happened with 4200 mAh batteries - 1 out of 4 domestic suppliers now carry them in the numbers an performance parameters we are after. And most of you don't like that particular brand! So what will you do if you toast a few armatures, trash an endbell etc, or burn through a handful of cells etc? I'm not trying to be alarmist - it's the reality of what we have been seeing with respect to supply and service. You can almost forget about warrantee for older product! Sad but true.

P.

[RC51]

Sorry, the arms I refer to are for the C2 and the P2K2.

P.

[Grinder]

Oh this is a hot one....

I am pro brushless for sure but I strongly think that mixing 27T and 17.5T is not a good idea.  Either one or the other.  There is too much of an advantage with a 17.5 over the 27T and our racing is very close.  People with 27T brushed would be frustrated regardless if the difference was speed or driving skill.  The 18.5T is still an advantage over the 27T - they are not equal.  The problem with the current 18.5T sensored motors from Novak for instance is that they don't have any motor thermal sensing whereas the other motors do.  A great safety feature.

On the note of safety features I should also point out the LiMn technology which doesn't require a hard case and the 3800 mAh cells give as good a run time as a 4200 mAh NiMh with a lower cell profile (will fit in a T2 without modifying the bulkheads).  They will not catch on fire like LiPo can regardless of over charge/discharge or puncturing.  The most common cause of LiPo fire is from over discharging then attempting to recharge the cells.  I have heard rummors of newer LiPo cells being over discharged and charging OK but like I said take this as a rummor for safety sake but note it as the technology is improving.  I personally think the LiMn is the road we should go down.  The cells have proven to be extremely robust over the last year and a bit that I've been abusing them for and the added safety factor is a major bonus.  LiPo are safe to use as well as long as they are used properly.  They don't typically fail unless they are abused.

And on to yet another delicate subject....  Pan Cars...  as you know I'd race three wheeled Elmo dolls if that was an existing class so I'm all for pretty much any racing we can get in.  The classes IROCC picks is always for the benifit of the club - not because the Exec likes or dislikes a class.  There isn't a club in Canada that I've heard of or know of that holds a candle to IROCC.  Its because of the simplicity of our stock class, etc.  While I would love to race pan cars there is something to be said for having touring cars in the summer and pan cars in the winter.  It helps to keep the interest up between the two seasons.  If we run pan cars in the summer the people who are moderately interesed in them in the summer probably won't bother to come and race them in the winter.  Granted its 10th scale on the pavement but its still and extremely agile pan car more akin to a 12th scale on the carpet than a 10th scale TC on the pavement.

[Grinder]

I should also note with the LiMn cells that they are rated at 500 cycles compared to 100 cycles with LiPo.  You can of course get more cycles than that out of both cells but we are interested in race worthy cycles for our applications.

[Tom]

I should also note with the LiMn cells that they are rated at 500 cycles compared to 100 cycles with LiPo.  You can of course get more cycles than that out of both cells but we are interested in race worthy cycles for our applications.

Yikes.

And NiCad are rated around 1000 cycles, and NiMH around 300 - 500 or so.  But, remember, it's progress!

The ratings I'm talking about are 90% performance -- as far as racing goes, around 50 cycles will start to have a noticeable impact on NiMH,.  How is the cycle life rating for lithium batteries determined?

Unfortunately, you'll have to trust my recollection on cycle life above, since my source for the numbers has vanished into the ether (there's a 404 Not Found for the URL).

[RC51]

Racing 27T and 17.5 together but separating the results through the software would keep the number of cars the same, but also put us into a situation where racers can race one motor but not the other even though they may be capable. It would also help address the time consumption issue.

At this point aren't there more racers interested in Pro10 cars compared to Nitro? Seems that the Nitro numbers dropped off last year somewhat.

P.

[Tom]

Racing 27T and 17.5 together but separating the results through the software would keep the number of cars the same, but also put us into a situation where racers can race one motor but not the other even though they may be capable. It would also help address the time consumption issue.

I like this idea, if it turns out to be necessary.

At this point aren't there more racers interested in Pro10 cars compared to Nitro? Seems that the Nitro numbers dropped off last year somewhat.

Now that's a touchy subject.

[DekelzMan]

In the past "whats best for the club" has been touring cars. I don't want this to turn into a class debate but one could definitely argue that touring car racing has become exceedingly expensive. A new touring car is not cheap and keeping it shod with competitive tires is downright exorbitant. Whereas a touring rubber tire has about 4 or 5 really good runs, 15 - 20 ok runs and then they're junk.

Pan Cars are significantly cheaper to get into, the tires are as good on their last run as they are on their first run. Tires are cheaper to begin with. Motors are less likely to burn out because the cars are lighter and the price/performance ratio is unparalleled. We're close to as fast as the Nitro cars at a fraction of the cost.

If you were new to racing, Pan Car is a cheaper and higher performance class than either TC Electric or TC Nitro.

[Grinder]

I should also note with the LiMn cells that they are rated at 500 cycles compared to 100 cycles with LiPo.  You can of course get more cycles than that out of both cells but we are interested in race worthy cycles for our applications.

Yikes.

And NiCad are rated around 1000 cycles, and NiMH around 300 - 500 or so.  But, remember, it's progress!

The ratings I'm talking about are 90% performance -- as far as racing goes, around 50 cycles will start to have a noticeable impact on NiMH,.  How is the cycle life rating for lithium batteries determined?

Unfortunately, you'll have to trust my recollection on cycle life above, since my source for the numbers has vanished into the ether (there's a 404 Not Found for the URL).

NiMh fall off after ten or so cycles - even after the first three cycles they start to drop off especially in the last year or so.  Same goes for your matched packs - they are unmatched in the first few cycles.  If you make it half way through the season a new battery pack will easily outperform your old pack even from the same batch of cells.  That's why the guys that can afford new packs every month or so always have the best pefroming packs.  So sure you can get 500 cycles out of them but not competatively.

[Grinder]

Nitro is expensive and frustrating but its also extremely fun and rewarding.  Once you have your kit there is no need to buy a new car every year as seems to be the case for electric TC.  One of the major reasons to keep Nitro is it is by far the number one draw for the club.  People hear the cars and most people who inquire want to race nitro - not electric.  Of course we always steer them to electric because of cost and maintainance.  Nitro in the summer is a big part of what keeps our club healthy by generating interest.  Almost every time I tell someone about the club they say something along the lines of "oh yea you are the guys that run the gas cars out by the Juan de Fuca Rec center right?"

As for the cost of tires you can run a whole season on a set of tires for your TC depending on how you drive and what compound you use.  Most can get away with two sets a season.  The problem being that whoever can afford to buy tires every week or other week has a distinct advantage in performance.  An issue I'm not sure of how to address.  TC tires are cheap now - $7.50 a pair whereas 10th pan cars are what - $15 a pair and you will definately go through those more quickly (although I do like the point that the tires don't change in performance as they wear - well not as drastically).

As for stock splitting the two classes in software is no different than having two different classes bringing us from three classes to four.  Too many classes is the Club Killer.  A possible comprimise is to have a "Stock Brushless Class" with an 18.5T motor and allow people who don't want to convert over to run their 27T motors if they want knowing that they are at a disadvantage just like we would allow someone to run 2400 NiCd cells in their car.

A brushless system is arguably cheaper than brushed.  A brushless ESC/motor can be around $250.  Most good brushed ESCs are around $175-200 and the motor is ~ $55.  There are no brushes to buy and there is no need to buy a comm lathe so the new driver has a lower cost.  Maintainance is next to nill and the system is more efficient letting you get more power to the ground using less power from your batteries.  The sensor based brushless also monitors the heat in the motor to prevent you from burning up your arm in your motor.

The brushless also brings the issue of programable ESCs.  If we do go to a brushless I think programable ESCs should not be allowed as it is possible to advance the timing in software with ESCs such as Castle Creations, etc.  There is also a significant difference in motors of the same wind so a club motor would be required.  Just be sure to have an ESC that does both brushed and brushless in case you want to go to an out of town race that only allows brushed motors, etc.  Most brushless ESCs do support brushed/brushless.

[BigDawg]

pan is fun but if there was no nitro i wouldnt even bother showing up myself!

[RC51]

IMHO, using any motor other than 17.5 for stock is a move in the wrong direction. If racers choose to either come to our trophy race or go to other trophy races in different cities, or simply come join us, another motor would be required. Further, if specs are set for the 17.5 that may or may not apply to the 18.5, we're left with another problem. Supply, parts and availability may something to consider. Also, does anyone think that ROAR and other international bodies haven't thought about this and consulted? Reasoned arguments have been presented about this very issue.

I know nitro is a sacred cow and people will rightly argue to keep it. The same can be said of Pro10 except that it currently doesn't exist. The question in my opinion should be how many racers there are that are interested and how existing equipment and supporting electronics etc can be transferred over or can be used in the TC and/or Pro10.

Besides, it's innovation.

P.