New ROAR Rules

[Blake]

Thanks for the info Trent.


My first concern was to determine if allowing LiPo would give an advantage to those racers with higher budgets.  As you said, this is a hard one to measure.  So, I looked at it from a different angle.  And this is an angle lots of you guys have pitched before.  I'm just formalizing it here:

Last summer we had 48 people run in Touring Stock.  Out of those 48, 40 of them raced four times or more.  Out of those 40, 22 of them saw the "B" or "A" mains.  Out of those 22, 4 of them are racers that do NOT usually buy at least two new 6-cell battery packs at the start of the summer (roughly equivalent to buying one LiPo pack).

Summary: IF it is found that LiPo does infact offer a performance advantage, only 10% of the club will be compromised by having to spend $120 on a battery they otherwise wouldn't need.  Note:  If you regularly run in the "D" or "C", then an extra volt at 70+ Amps should not be your top concern.  Yes, there are sometimes close battles in the "C" but they are not won and lost with batteries.

Harsh?  Maybe.  But those are the numbers, and based on last summer, they are accurate.


So, I guess I have an opinion on the LiPo debate... still unsure on the motor and class stuff though!


Blake

[Tom]

I'd love to play with any data you coul come up with in Matlab.  One can NEVER have too much data!

[Grinder]

I have some graphs with the IB4200, 3800 LiMn and 4900LiPo cells.  I don't have the data on hand but I can tell you based on the graph the LiMn outperforms the NiMh at 30A for the first half and starts to taper off towards the end - I'd take a LiMn over an IB based on that graph.  The LiPo smokes both of them and its definately mAh that is a factor.  IF we decide to go with a LiPo or LiMn we have to have a mAh rating because as you go up in mAh you increase the average voltage under load.

Tom if you want to play I have a 1K Watt system we can discharge 7.4V packs at 135A continuous if you want

Oh and Phil isn't a stock motor around 85W as opposed to the brushless "stock" of 130W?

[RC51]

Hi Kurk,

We can regularly get stock motors to draw 120 watts+ at 7.0 volts. add another half volt and we're getting up ther. I saw one of Frank B's motors pull 127 watts at 7 volts a couple of years back.

R? avg volotage, doesn't that only become a factor if you are into pulling 3500 mAh+ in a heat since it is calculated for the entire discharge curve? What is the % drop from 2500-3500 mAh (19T range)?

P.

[Shawn68z]

Well, I for one would like to see lithium cells being used in all the electric classes at Irocc.  The prices of the LiPo cells have really come down, and you can now buy them ranged from $85 US (Trinity) to $120US (TrakPower).  You should only need 2 packs per car. Thats a pretty good price if the durability of the Lithium battery can stand up to the abuse of RC car racing.  

As for brushless systems, let the 13.5 and 27T motors race each other. If a big difference is noticed between the two, we could always handy-cap the brushless cars. (maybe add alittle extra weight ? ) I definately have no intention of going to brushless this year.

Shawn.

BTW. Where are we going to add the extra weight to the car? Its close to 9 Oz of lead need to be added!!

[SgRddY]

Well, I for one would like to see lithium cells being used in all the electric classes at Irocc.  The prices of the LiPo cells have really come down, and you can now buy them ranged from $85 US (Trinity) to $120US (TrakPower).  You should only need 2 packs per car. Thats a pretty good price if the durability of the Lithium battery can stand up to the abuse of RC car racing.  

As for brushless systems, let the 13.5 and 27T motors race each other. If a big difference is noticed between the two, we could always handy-cap the brushless cars. (maybe add alittle extra weight ? ) I definately have no intention of going to brushless this year.

Shawn.

BTW. Where are we going to add the extra weight to the car? Its close to 9 Oz of lead need to be added!!

running 13.5 brushless with 27T?  huh? it's would be like hit and pass.

[Shawn68z]

running 13.5 brushless with 27T?  huh? it's would be like hit and pass.

I run in the C and D, its pretty much hit to pass anyways.  :wink:

Your right, I should have put " let the 27T and the 17.5's run together. "

There still will be big speed difference between them, but its only a major problem when a fast car ends up in the C & D mains.   No matter what happens someone else is going to have a faster car by spending more money.  Thats part of racing.

What could help is having a spec brushless. Only allowing Novak 17.5's with GTB's, and _any_ 27T 24 deg ROAR motor grandfathered in Eventually everyone will upgrade to the Novak 17.5. This might help with keeping costs undercontrol by preventing 'exotic' speed controlers and motors.

Shawn.

[Matt S]

the GTB is programable

im runnin KO if we go brushless

[Arch]

I thought this was a HOBBY ,not F1. You clowns with all the money to spend should start your own class and run it on monday as its clear you have money to burn ,you dont need to work all week. As for you Haddow, there are alot of guys that can barely afford it now,how could you possibly be so narrow minded as to have the "run it or quit".attitude.I am one of those guys struggling to stay competitive because of always being one up'ed by some guy with deep pockets.ROAR is not and will not be the HOLY GRAIL as you said ,in fact I wouldn"t be suprised if ROAR isn"t owned by TRINITY.This just makes me sick to think I and many others are being forced out of a hobby I"ve done for 20 years because of all of this "progress" ,and I know I"m not alone.
As I recall none of the people pushing for too much too fast,were out in the parking lot when there was only 6 or 7 guys.History has a way of repeating itself.

[haddow]

I thought this was a HOBBY ,not F1. You clowns with all the money to spend should start your own class and run it on monday as its clear you have money to burn ,you dont need to work all week. As for you Haddow, there are alot of guys that can barely afford it now,how could you possibly be so narrow minded as to have the "run it or quit".attitude.I am one of those guys struggling to stay competitive because of always being one up'ed by some guy with deep pockets.ROAR is not and will not be the HOLY GRAIL as you said ,in fact I wouldn"t be suprised if ROAR isn"t owned by TRINITY.This just makes me sick to think I and many others are being forced out of a hobby I"ve done for 20 years because of all of this "progress" ,and I know I"m not alone.
As I recall none of the people pushing for too much too fast,were out in the parking lot when there was only 6 or 7 guys.History has a way of repeating itself.

I dont think I said run it or quit. How long do you plan on staying in the dark ages. The personal attacks are bull frack. Your 20 year old frack cant last forever.

[haddow]

furthermore, I have proposed a number of scenarios to deal with this and have even attempted to include everything and everyone. So re-read the posts. Also here is an idea for you to try out for once, why not provide a scenario or idea rather than a whiny and agressive complaint. Calling people clowns and narrow-minded is lame on your part.


I for one will not be racing Touring electric regardless of what happens so I am thinking about the club, not myself. As far as Pro10 goes I will run brushed even if brushless is allowed beacuse you dont need the extra power in PanCar class. Someday when I have a couple hundred bucks to blow I will get a brushless for it to reap all the benefits of the new technology.

Our "flagship class" can not continue on with old and outdate technology. The executive does its best to protect and limit the amount we have to spend. It can not howver be expected to protect people from major shifts in the face of the industry. Subtle changes are managable but big changes have to be dealt with.

[Shawn68z]

the GTB is programable

im runnin KO if we go brushless

When you say "Programmable" what do you mean? Like changing the drive freq, and braking? or hook up a JTAG and uploading some microcontroller firmware?

Shawn

[Grinder]

Hi Kurk,

We can regularly get stock motors to draw 120 watts+ at 7.0 volts. add another half volt and we're getting up ther. I saw one of Frank B's motors pull 127 watts at 7 volts a couple of years back.

R? avg volotage, doesn't that only become a factor if you are into pulling 3500 mAh+ in a heat since it is calculated for the entire discharge curve? What is the % drop from 2500-3500 mAh (19T range)?

P.

Yea - and I can/have gotten a stock motor to draw 90A+ at 6V... thats over 500W.... until the smoke starts to come out.  The specs on most of the motors I've seen have been around 85W IIRC.  Is this at a lower voltage?  There has to be some standard for loading otherwise you can pull pretty much any numbers.  I'm assuming your comparision is 120W with a stock brushed motor and 130W with the brushless on the same system?

[Grinder]

the GTB is programable

im runnin KO if we go brushless

When you say "Programmable" what do you mean? Like changing the drive freq, and braking? or hook up a JTAG and uploading some microcontroller firmware?

Shawn

I'm assuming he's talking about the "programable" feature built into the ESC by pressing buttons, etc.  This is not an issue.  What is an issue is the very flexible programing through a computer, etc that allows the user to program the speed controller and advance the timing through software which is not allowed in normal stock racing.  You can advance the timing so much that a stock motor will melt the wires off.  I don't believe the GTX is capable of this kind of programing unless there is some sort of "hack" for it.

[Grinder]

I thought this was a HOBBY ,not F1. You clowns with all the money to spend should start your own class and run it on monday as its clear you have money to burn ,you dont need to work all week. As for you Haddow, there are alot of guys that can barely afford it now,how could you possibly be so narrow minded as to have the "run it or quit".attitude.I am one of those guys struggling to stay competitive because of always being one up'ed by some guy with deep pockets.ROAR is not and will not be the HOLY GRAIL as you said ,in fact I wouldn"t be suprised if ROAR isn"t owned by TRINITY.This just makes me sick to think I and many others are being forced out of a hobby I"ve done for 20 years because of all of this "progress" ,and I know I"m not alone.
As I recall none of the people pushing for too much too fast,were out in the parking lot when there was only 6 or 7 guys.History has a way of repeating itself.

Re-read the thread.  There are a lot of reasons why brushless and LiPo/LiMn is cheaper.  A new racer will save money on the brushless system not to mention no additional cost for a comm lathe, brushes, motor oil, motor shims, battery trays, etc.  If anyone is still using an antique charger you can upgrade it with an adapter from Losi for $35 USD - kind of like a DVD adapter for your 20 year old VCR.  LiPo/LiMn requires ONE battery that will give 100 race worthy cycles as opposed to NiMh that falls off after 10 cycles.  You want to run batteries all season when someone can buy a new pack after 10 cycles and be more competative than you?

Brushless is going to happen wether any of us want it to or not.  Brushed motors will eventually disappear.  Brushless has been in the wings of competative racing for at least four years and it will take over.  Would it be any less painful for you if we moved to brushless next year?  Doubtfull.  Many clubs are alreay racing with brushless motors in their stock class and there is some urgency to be on the same level as the clubs we compete with.  Besides you can always go backwards and throw a brushed motor if an away race is brushed only for some reason.

We do have to progress even though it is painful for some otherwise we would still be running 1700 mAh NiCd, mechanical speed controllers and Mabuchi motors - kinda hard to get replacements....
Re-read the thread.  There are a lot of reasons why brushless and LiPo/LiMn is cheaper.  A new racer will save money on the brushless system not to mention no additional cost for a comm lathe, brushes, motor oil, motor shims, battery trays, etc.  If anyone is still using an antique charger you can upgrade it with an adapter from Losi for $35 USD - kind of like a DVD adapter for your 20 year old VCR.  LiPo/LiMn requires ONE battery that will give 100 race worthy cycles as opposed to NiMh that falls off after 10 cycles.  You want to run batteries all season when someone can buy a new pack after 10 cycles and be more competative than you?  Going LiPo/LiMn is still cheaper than multiple battery packs even if you need the adapter.

Brushless is going to happen wether any of us want it to or not.  Brushed motors will eventually disappear.  Brushless has been in the wings of competative racing for at least four years and it will take over.  Would it be any less painful for you if we moved to brushless next year?  Doubtfull.  Many clubs are alreay racing with brushless motors in their stock class and there is some urgency to be on the same level as the clubs we compete with.  Besides you can always go backwards and throw a brushed motor if an away race is brushed only for some reason.

We do have to progress even though it is painful for some otherwise we would still be running 1700 mAh NiCd, mechanical speed controllers and Mabuchi motors - kinda hard to get replacements....