IMPORTANT CLUB VOTE - 12th Scale Motors

[Grinder]

Its not club motor or not that will be a performance issue its going to be the battery game again.  Whoever can afford to buy new NiMh batteries will have a distinct advantage over the guys who use their batteries all season.  I'm not looking forward to multiple NiMh battery packs and all the maintainance they require for the winter.....  NiMh bleh  Batteries are going to be the factor - not the difference between very comparable 27T stock motors....

[haddow]

so true unfortunately

[WhoDoYouThink]

Don't you just love it when the Executive gives you all the choice! LOL
Now you know the hair pulling, eye gouging, nail biting and arguing that goes on when we try to do what we think is best for everyone involved! 

I wrote a long, "Thomas like" post last night, arguing the Pros and Cons of our 3 choices, then  I decided it wasn't going to make a pinch of difference anyway,  so I deleted it.

Basically, I think Choice A is the best choice.

I say that because "IF" we use a "Club" motor,  IE: a T-Bang tuned and blue printed motor like we've used in the past with good results, it "should" take pretty much all of the possible variables in quality and performance out of the equation, versus IROCC buying a case or two of generic 27 turn stock motors and hoping for the best!  Not to mention it "should" be cheaper for individuals as it would be a "bulk" buy.

Like a lot of you guys, I've got some left over 27 turn stock motors from last year/years ago, but they'll need either a new arm, or new bushing or a magnet re-zapping, or whatever,  so what's the point when a brand spankin' new 27 turn is so readily available?

That's in part why I'm not big on Choice B or Choice C.

I say lets give T-Bang/Trent/Phil the opportunity to once again supply us with a top quality 27 turn motor. All we need to do is give them enough lead time to get it done, and that time is quickly ticking away!

HOWEVER, "IF" someone want to run a 17.5 brushless system, I say, all the power to them. But at this point, I'm not aware of anyone in the Club that currently has one. I realize a few guys have the speed controllers already from Pan Car so they're half way there, but eventually IROCC is going to have to bite the bullet when Brushless really becomes main stream.  I'm just not sure if we're there yet.

Anyways, for what it is worth, that's what I think...

Regards,
Nick

[Tom]

Its not club motor or not that will be a performance issue its going to be the battery game again.  Whoever can afford to buy new NiMh batteries will have a distinct advantage over the guys who use their batteries all season.  I'm not looking forward to multiple NiMh battery packs and all the maintainance they require for the winter.....  NiMh bleh  Batteries are going to be the factor - not the difference between very comparable 27T stock motors....

I disagree strongly.

Last year I did purchase a couple new NiMH packs to replace my 1.5 year old packs, hoping that would solve my poor performance.  I had ended up dropping to around 1 lap off the pace around mid-season.  The new batteries made no difference whatsoever.  A chassis adjustment a few weeks later changed my car to being 1 lap off the pace to a contender.

I'll be one of the first people to lament the demise of NiCad batteries in competitive R/C racing, since NiCads were so durable relative to NiMH chemistry.  However, this constant whining about how horrible NiMH are is completely undeserved.  NiMH are far more durable than most in our club give them credit for, and I strongly believe most failures can be attributed to poor maintenance of batteries rather than the batteries themselves.

To clarify, I consider discharge trays, discharging after a run, cycling, etc. all poor maintenance practices, since these add significant and unnecessary stress to the batteries, and are in my opinion a major contributor to the poor cycle life many club members complain about.

Furthermore, to bring this back on-topic, I'd like to encourage some people to vote on this issue from the perspective of what they think is best for the club as a whole, rather than how many worn-out motors they have in their toolbox.

[haddow]

"However, this constant whining about how horrible NiMH are is completely undeserved"

you are kidding right?

"To clarify, I consider discharge trays, discharging after a run, cycling, etc. all poor maintenance practices, since these add significant and unnecessary stress to the batteries, and are in my opinion a major contributor to the poor cycle life many club members complain about."

read a manual, or talk to a manufacturer about this, you are on your own on this point too. You may feel that this is unneeded but this is what EVERY racer is told to do from just about EVERYWHERE.

[DekelzMan]

I am in 100% agreement with Nick and my vote is A

Last winter we had our pick of any number of flavours of motors and when it came down to it, it wasn't the motor that made much difference at all. The same crop of drivers still managed to end up in the A...

I would say there are a few reasons for this, and the sooner people step back and look at the bigger picture, the better..

A main reason why the top guys are the top guys is they have a thorough understanding of how their car works and years of experience in knowing what to do to make it handle better. It doesn't matter if you are running the hottest modified motor against a field of stock motors, if you're car is not set up properly, you will not be fast. Most race days this summer I have tried to get around to as many Pro10 cars as I could to see if I could help them with their setups. More often than not, I could find something wrong that would severely hamper their abilities to drive a clean line. Preparation of your car is critical people!

Remember, Tom is an anomaly! Well I'd say Tom and Jarrod are the only guys I've ever seen drive cars that were complete crap and still managed to make them look good

Making sure your suspension is as free as possible, making sure your front end has little play in it, making sure all your screws are tight, making sure your battery is securely mounted, making sure your body posts are solid and when you're mounting the body that it floats freely on the body posts so as not to tweak your car in any way. Speaking of tweak, before every run you should throw the car on a tweak station; there are usually a few set up at the track and everyone is more than welcome to use mine at any time. If you don't know how to use one, please feel free to ask! Make sure your bearings are in good shape and rolling freely. Make sure your tires don't have any chunks that can fly off mid-race, and try and run them through a truer if they don't match. Again , there are always a couple tire truers at the track and I'm sure most would not complain about you borrowing them.

This club is frik-frakken (Blake-ism) amazing when it comes to people lending a hand with any problem you may have. So much knowledge in one group is very rare indeed, take advantage of these guys!

The other main reason the top guys are the top guys is because they know how to slow down. Yes you read that correctly, how to SLOW DOWN.

Any car that is designed for a road course has limitations on what it can do. Driving full throttle until you're 2 feet from the corner, slamming on the brakes and pointing it straight at the next corner and mashing the throttle down is NOT the quickest way around the track. Knowing when to hit the gas, knowing when to back off to allow your car to transfer weight to the front so those little tires can grab the carpet, these are things that you need to learn to make your car go fast. If you're not corner marshalling the fast guy's heats, stop and really watch how they drive. Watch where they hit the throttle, watch when they back off, watch their throttle finger and steering fingers. Note how they NEVER let go of the steering wheel to center their car going down the straight away. Learn where they apex the corners. Note how they treat slow s-curves versus high speed doglegs. There is so much to learn all the time. You never stop learning.

Once you can truly say your skills are up to the top guys and they're still beating you, then look for other reasons. Very rarely will it come down to who's spending the most money or who bought the latest flavour of the week motors. Those of us that have spent waay too much money on this hobby know very well, that that new cool looking battery/motorwarmer/cooler/tire cooker/cooler/12guagewire/spagettiwire/noisesuppresion/liquidcooledturbofan/stainlesssteel/unobtainium-axled/ceramicbearing/GenXSP12X12L5/TekinNovak/anodized/dekeledupthewazoo is all just cause we like cool looking things on our pit table. If they give us a psychological advantage then so be it

It's a hobby after all and anyone that takes this stuff too serious should consider taking a season or two off. Trust me when I say that can do you a world of good and get a proper perspective on things......

Pick any one of the three motor scenarios and I guarantee you that the guys that do the prep work before hand and understand and respect their equipment will be fast.

Mick

[Blake]

Yeah, good post Mick - IROCC is "fricken" good when it comes to knowledge sharing.  Although, sometimes I wonder what's under that towel on your Pro10 car...!  Just kidding!

Interestingly, I found your post more of a nod for Option C rather than Option A....

You're so right: there are MANY factors of which the motor is just one.  For some reason the motor usually gets the most attention.


Blake

[jarrodH]

well here my take, whats the cheapest best way to make it a even playin feild??

if we order a set of motors from trent, or whoever tunes stock motors these days, then there all goin to be fairly even in performance..yes you may still have the odd few that are really fast, and the odd slower one. its electronics, its the way they are.. but if you  do happen to get the slower one, almost enyone in the club can/will help you with it..and we would most likely get a bulk order discount..


someone above mention'd switchin motors between drivers.. anyone thaught of having a true handout motor?? u get a motor at the begining of the night, then at the end they are all returned and through in a box, the next race night, as you register you reach in, like drawing a raffle ticket, and pull one out?

most racers cut/rebuild their motor each night anyway right?? wel if so the wear factor wont be much of a factor, and that way as the motors circulate they are kept up/rebuilt by the last guy.

just an idea i had last time we ran club motors..

[Arch]

Its not club motor or not that will be a performance issue its going to be the battery game again.  Whoever can afford to buy new NiMh batteries will have a distinct advantage over the guys who use their batteries all season.  I'm not looking forward to multiple NiMh battery packs and all the maintainance they require for the winter.....  NiMh bleh  Batteries are going to be the factor - not the difference between very comparable 27T stock motors....

Then maybe we should be looking at a bulk battery purchase also and have a club battery system?

[Blake]

Its not club motor or not that will be a performance issue its going to be the battery game again.  Whoever can afford to buy new NiMh batteries will have a distinct advantage over the guys who use their batteries all season.  I'm not looking forward to multiple NiMh battery packs and all the maintainance they require for the winter.....  NiMh bleh  Batteries are going to be the factor - not the difference between very comparable 27T stock motors....

Then maybe we should be looking at a bulk battery purchase also and have a club battery system?

Although we didn't enforce it last year, this is basically what we had since most racers bought their batteries through the easily accessible Phil/T-Bang channel.  It's also harder with batteries because they change SO fast.  You can make a rule at the start of the season, but you might find that you can no longer get those batteries by mid-season.


Blake

[Grinder]

If the common theme is the motors don't make any difference why would we want to buy yet ANOTHER stock motor?  If we include it in the club fees it just jacks the fees up to cover the cost of the handout.  It seems senseless to buy another motor if you already have a box full of them.  Who here doesn't have at least two or three stock motors?  I mean if you buy one you almost need to buy a second spare just in case you need to quickly change in a new motor for your next heat.  With the added expense of buying multiple packs of batteries probably multiple times in a season do we need to spend money on one or two redundant stock motors?

[gotnitro]

handing in motors is a bad idea who is going to true all of them  for next weekend. I wouldnt want to invest in a motor and have someone that doesnt know how to souder and get it all over the end bell.As well as someone smashing the endbell ring into the wall ,next thing you know you have a crappy motor. A- sounds good and all you guys should be double reading what Mick had posted .Its SMRT

[Arch]

 Don't try and tell me that your NOT going to buy a new motor or four this season. Weall know you too well.lol

[DekelzMan]

Hey Blake,

When I started the post I was leaning towards A for sure. By the time I finished writing it I think I was leaning towards "it doesn't matter"

People not familiar with motorsport, and specifically road course cars simply equate speed with the power plant, not so much the way you drive lines and how efficient your whole car is....

Mick

[gotnitro]

i still have 2 t-bang motors from last year that kicked ass. I will be looking at new batterys though