The Great Pro10/World GT Debate!

[Blake]

The handling of the car felt somewhere between a TC sled and a nimble 12th scale.

What are they like on asphalt?

Yeah, excellent question, and one I had hoped to answer over the last three weeks in September.  Unfortunately the rain thwarted that plan so I really have no idea.

Blake

[Falcon]

We need to get on with this. Blake can we just make the decision and make this topic go away. We've haggled enough.

[RC51]

What are they like on asphalt?

Hey, T.

You can check out the ROAR Paved Nats this year to see how the spec cars handle on asphalt. Looked dialed from the videos. Same thing in London, ON I understand and they ran on seal-coated asphalt. I don't have any specific details. Maybe a call or email through to CRC would put the question to rest.

P.

[Gorden]

lets see how the WGT class works this weekend at the Chill

Blake \ Craig are you guys going to race WGT?

Gorden

[Shawn68z]

Shawn May have a good idea, but the one thing I feel strongly about is the spec tires. Whatever we do I think the one thing we should do is run spec tires. I think this point alone will do more to even things out than any other.  As one on a small budget there was no way I could keep all the sets of rubber required to do well on any given day, if you take tires out of the mix I believe the rest would soon follow.

Running WGT compounds wont save you a cent in tire costs.   If you want to save money then buy donuts and mount them yourself. I have been doing this for 2 years now, and I get a pair of donuts for $11, sometimes less.  Works out to 1/2 of what you would normally pay.  As for combo's, I have lots of useless foams from experimentation. I only run two different combos now Pink/Purple(lasts 4-5 weekends), and White/Pink(lasts 2-3 weekends). 

My problem with running WGT is ever since the begining of this class, I have not been able to find a steady supplier of WGT wheels. Even stormer only has 1 set of BMI's in, and all other WGT wheels are currently on order.  I have tried 3 other online hobby shops, and no one has any stock of WGT wheels.  By allowing people to run any wheel they want, it allows more sources for the wheels, and a better chance of securing some foam.

Shawn.

[RC51]

I ran it there last year as a demo with another guy and will do it again this year in the race. I ran a 10.5 1s and the other fellow ran a 13.5 1s. Other than the obvious difference in power, the cars handled beautifully and I stopped using traction compound after the second heat. Virtually no tire wear as well.

Glenn ran WGT tires a couple of times this year, too. Arguably different since he ran 2s 10.5 GTP, but the tires hooked up regardless.

This is apples and oranges for our situation, though, and we're making a big deal out of it. High-traction carpet with 13.5 1s (Chill rules this year) is a far cry from 10.5 1s on asphalt with less grip. Using the chill as a basis for comparison is folly. However, watching Ryan's car in WGT form with 2s, it was obviously capable of connecting with the track! The thing was hugely fast and the tires were gripping.

My $0.02 based on my experience driving WGT. 

P.

[Tom]

We need to get on with this. Blake can we just make the decision and make this topic go away. We've haggled enough.

Why must a decision for racing 6 months from now be made today?  Three months is a LONNNNG time in this hobby nowadays.

Mick made some good points a few posts back.  Let's not confuse too many issues.

I, for one, feel that slowing cars down will not significantly change the finishing order.  The people who currently turn 3 of 30 laps slower will end up turning 2 of 20 laps slower, etc.  So, slowing the cars down won't make anyone more competitive.

However, slowing cars down DOES tend to reduce running costs.  Tires tend to last longer, as do bodies, and whatever other parts people manage to break on their cars.  So, it is possible that a slower field will tend to be more even due to nobody having to be cheap due to high operating costs.

But, if you want to run slow, isn't that what we have taxi cabs for?  If you want to look for an expensive class, that's one right there.

What makes for great racing is lots of racers at a similar skill level.  So, if we're going to have lots of skill levels in a class, we're going to want to have lots of racers in that class.

It can be a problem if there are too many classes to choose from, as the inevitable result is a dilution of entries in all the classes.  You can also experience racers who see their car isn't being run, so they choose to not race, hoping that by holding out, a new class will be created for them to join.  We've learned these lessons in the past the hard way, and have found success in offering a limited selection of classes, and telling racers to get the kinds of cars we run rather than running their cars.

Mick's question is valid.  Are we in the process of learning this lesson again?

Or, are we way off target?  Might it be the racing schedule that is causing the low turnouts?

And, as Mick indicated, just what is it we're trying to discuss?

[Jtg.73]

Wow. This is giving me a headache.  This is racing.  Slower just doesn't seem to make sense.

[jarrodH]

well i almost posted this yesturday but chosse againt it.. but..

mick, it has diluted the tc class a little bit. look at the A main results that gery posted some # back.. the usual tc A main is entirely missing from a couple years back(i noticed the change as soon as pro10 started, there is no longer a craig, blake, darryl, nick N and you mick runnin tc, and tom is usually not runnin tc when hes come out.. id say 95% of the usuall A main has moved to pan. although danny has improved alot, when danny can win or come second in the tc A main what does that tell ya.. how many top drivers are missing?

and the point that was made about the spec tire bein cheaper, no per set isnt cheaper, but it cuts down on people having 4 sets of foams in 4 different compunds to suit the different track temps.. it makes it easier for the guys that will comprimize and choose a compound that isnt ideal, but will get the job done on a wide variety of days, rather than a guy that has 4 compunds to choose from to dial the car in..

if you want to get people to run the class then just cut the costs down.. spec tire, for above reason, 1s lipo/4 cell nimh..and 10.5/19turn.. as everyon in the club has a one 1s lipo or more from 12th scale, a brushless esc from their tc and/or 1/12 and most have a 19turn motor from before the BL switch over, or u can buy a 10.5 for 60$.. but changin thw battery rules wont save people much, only about +- 15$ a battery? the only saving is just in consumables, tires/parts/bodies.

and i believe another reason for the low numbers is just intimidation factor, the current cars are faster than a nitro car, break like a 12thscale and the class has most of the top racers in the club..

[DekelzMan]

Really Jarrod?

Blake didn't run one Pro10 heat nor did Craig, and both ran TC, as did Daryl and Nick, ALL YEAR. There was NO dilution whatsoever except for me but I have not run TC for three years...if Craig and Blake (or anyone for that matter) had to choose one or the other class due to budgetary reasons, that's when you could possibly see dilution but for three years now it has not had that affect at all..

Your point is good though regarding tires. I did have tires that I didn't use all year because there was never a scenario where they would work so if you only had one compound then at least you'd know that all you bought you would have to make work.

As far as intimidation factor and parts breakage, I think TC's break far far more often, and have way more parts and way more expensive parts....Please don't make me say what I want to say right now....LOL

[gotnitro]

I second that Mick....

[RC51]

Please don't make me say what I want to say right now....LOL

Like why are we racing TC anyway?

I think dilution is a convergence of factors, not just one and the exec have a handle on it. I seem to recall some of the similar logic being applied to trying 19T, then Pro10, then LiPo and brushless - many diseases, but the same cures proposed. Look at the standard specs for the various classes and I'll bet you see pan cars being relatively stable compared to TC over time. Less change at this juncture (until something that reduces overall cost comes along) = less continuous sunken cost and more legacy involvement. In my mind this isn't about finishing order, it's about what class are we running and what are the rules?

The questions still remain: are we going to switch to WGT and if so, what are the specs that make it easy for others to join, to predict what we will be doing, and to keep costs down while having fun?

Phil

[Shawn68z]

and the point that was made about the spec tire bein cheaper, no per set isnt cheaper, but it cuts down on people having 4 sets of foams in 4 different compunds to suit the different track temps.. it makes it easier for the guys that will comprimize and choose a compound that isnt ideal, but will get the job done on a wide variety of days, rather than a guy that has 4 compunds to choose from to dial the car in..

and i believe another reason for the low numbers is just intimidation factor, the current cars are faster than a nitro car, break like a 12thscale and the class has most of the top racers in the club..

I know I should probably just drop this, but when you have 4 sets of wheels, you only run each set 1/4 of the time, so they will last 4 times longer then if you only have 1 set of wheels.  So you will not save money on wheels/tires, unless we could talk to CRC and get a group purchase for a fairly large quantity. If you wanted one set that works all the time Pink/Purple, its been the norm since the beginning.

As for your second point, i think you are dead right.  Being a replacement for 19T TC, it was always going to be fast. Is it a bad thing that the cars are to fast for novice drivers? I cant drive 1/12 open modified, so should the rules change to allow me to race in that class, or should I find a class that suits my abilities?

And for breaking of parts, last year (5 races only mind you), i only broke 1 part on my Pro10 car, which cost $12.   In 1/12 i did not break a  part in an entire season of racing.    TC there is alot more parts to break (drive cups! Arrg), and alot more wear and tear.

If you want a slow(er) class that everyone can run, that is not expensive, and has support in Vancouver, we should have a Mini-Class. or a 18R class. I know I would buy  Cameron a AE 18R in a heart beat. THey are cheap, robust, and inexpensive to run.  Would be a good starter class for anyone interested.

Shawn.

[jarrodH]

I know I should probably just drop this, but when you have 4 sets of wheels, you only run each set 1/4 of the time, so they will last 4 times longer then if you only have 1 set of wheels.  So you will not save money on wheels/tires, unless we could talk to CRC and get a group purchase for a fairly large quantity. If you wanted one set that works all the time Pink/Purple, its been the norm since the beginning.

Shawn.

but as mick said earlier hes got a set, or 2 that hes never used becasue the perfect opportunity never came up.. unless ur conciously rotating thru all your sets.. you will use certain compounds more than others.. so you have tires siting idle for weeks while other more "common" compounds are used up and replaced...

as i dont run this class, currently, im out..

all i gotta say is this, either keep it the way it is and the guys that enjoy it can run, or go with the wgt rules, and be on the same plane as everyone elses club so other people can come play with us and not have to change everything..

[Shawn68z]

The big question still remains.

By switching rules are there going to be anymore drivers each week?   Are there going to be any LESS drivers each week?


Shawn.