The Great Pro10/World GT Debate!

[BCbud]

That's my point, Neil. 13.5 2s in a 200mm car is not much slower than we are now. I believe Blake's initial intent from his post at he beginning of the season was to potentially bring the club in line with the rest of the world.
P.

I was thinking of the 10.5 with 1 cell, that would slow it down woudin't it?

[RC51]

Yes on the infield but not so much on the straight. I really liked the feel of the 1s on carpet but I am not sure about the weight on asphalt. Maybe too light - but I have no experience there.

P.

[Blake]

Isn't the idea of chainging to slow this class down a bit and make it more inviting for new drivers and make the racing mor even? If we are trying to keep it the same then why chaingre at all?

At the end of last winter's season I did announce that we'd be looking at possibly changing Pro10 for Summer 2011.  And the idea was to better align with the rest of North America, ROAR, and the WGT spec.

Now, after racing this whole summer, and watching the decline in numbers, and the big variance in our Pro10 laptimes, it seems that a little "slowing" of the class might help the class.

So, now there are TWO benefits of moving to WGT:  Alignment with everyone else, and hopefully tighter pan car racing at IROCC.

So, yes, I think whatever spec we choose, it must be more inviting (slower) to the newer racers than our current ballistic 2s 10.5 setup.  To me, the simplest change is simply reducing the battery from 2s to 1s.


Blake

[Blake]

Yes on the infield but not so much on the straight. I really liked the feel of the 1s on carpet but I am not sure about the weight on asphalt. Maybe too light - but I have no experience there.

P.

Yeah, it would be awesome to test this.  I *might* be able to arrange this for this Sunday.  I can remove my 2s and put one of my 12th Scale 1s packs in its place, along with my 12th Scale voltage booster.  My car is already at the WGT 200mm width, so the only pieces I am missing are the body and spec tires.  It might at least give an idea of how well the setup would work on asphalt.

Blake

[RC51]

While I agree, Blake, I just remembered the spur/pinion issue. 1s requires a larger pinion and if running 48P outdoor, some cars - t-bars in particular - may require shifting to 64P. Daj did that with no trouble but I suspect spur issues will be exacerbated.

P.

[gotnitro]

hey phil i am looking to see what it costs to change to the 200mm looks like 150.00 not including exchange rate or shipping so probably 200.00 might as well get a new car for that amount. Am i in the right ball park ya think.

[gotnitro]

looked on corrally usa and looks more like 90.00 not including exchange or shipping...not to bad

[Melbatoast]

They went to 1s 10.5 in the UK and according to at least one guy it has killed the class.  One issue that contributed is that heat on that setup is quite brutal, particularly on a comparatively big track.

Today was a sad day.
I was the only pan car there today (had to run with the 10.5 Tourers).
I fear the class is now dead as many have sold their cars
(shame that a few of our club members talk on here about how good the car is, but have never raced).
On way home I purchased a new Touring car, and will now mothball the pan cars.
Pan cars RIP

Our problem very different.
Class was looking great when we had the 2s LiPo cars with HPI 20T Saturn motors running with 4cell 10.5 cars, but .......
the BRCA made the National rules that stipulated cars must ONLY run 1s 3.7v, with GT2 for 10.5 motors and GT1 for Modified.
It is the 1s issue that made many pack their cars away or sell them, as most wanted to use the same 2s LiPo's they have for their Touring cars.
I have tried to get the 2s classes back to run along side the 1s classes, but they are not interested as it is not BRCA recognised rules.
I have been running 1s 10.5 outdoors and have had many reliability issues, like I now have to recharge the RX pack every run (don't even go there with a booster cos I still have the wrecked cars) and the 1s packs take up to 90 minutes to recharge after a 5 minute race @ 6amps (2s only takes around 50 minutes on same setting) and temperatures are very high but not so much on the can, it is the wires and esc getting hot, so much so that I often find the solder joints (internal and external) melted.
1s has killed the class at our track, but it works for those clubs running indoors on small tight tracks.
Until the BRCA makes rules for 2s set ups I doubt you'd find many clubs here running pan cars or F1 cars outdoors.

So, there you go - one guy has been through it.  We certainly may not have the same sort of problem, but the battery charging and wire de-soldering may be something to consider.

I like the class as it is, even though I was hardly competitive.  The biggest issue is tires - the Saanich event blew away all my tires and I only ran one day, and even regular days could be hard if I was hitting stuff.  Then, buying new tires was always a gut check because I didn't really know what compounds to grab AND finding a supplier with a decent stock was a little challenging.  The best suppliers are R/C oval shops, but they're in the southeast US so shipping cost and timeline are unreasonable.  If I race again this season I won't be running pan because I don't want to buy tires.

I found that the WGT spec compound worked pretty well everywhere, so, even keeping the mechanical specs as-is and going to a spec tire compound would probably improve the situation quite well. 

But if we want to change wholesale, I'm with Phil on the 2s 17.5 setup, as it would be relatively fast and easier on electronics.  Conforming to ROAR WGT rules is probably a zero-sum game because who in North America runs outdoor WGT?  There are probably just as many clubs, if not more, running some kind of Pro10-type or non-spec GT class.

Anyhow...

Ross

[WhoDoYouThink]

World GT Pro gets my vote, especially after reading Ross's post!

I already have a decent 2C battery and I've melted down pretty much all of my 19 turn motors trying to be competitive speed wise, so for next season I'll need to  go the brushless route anyways!

[Blake]

Thanks for the post Ross; good to hear input from other clubs going through a similar transition.

I always had decent success with tires, even the really soft Whites.  When I ran Pro10 last summer, I could race four weekends on a set which was acceptable.  It's good to hear that the WGT spec tires are workable on asphalt.  Do you know where they fit in the durometer scale?  And, are they 100% foam, or is there some rubber content like CRC Pink/Magenta/Purple tire family?

I don't understand the heat issue they are describing with 1s.  Why would a 1s setup cause heating issues on the solder posts?  I do agree that 1s is a pain for electronics because you need a voltage booster, but we ran those with high success last winter.

And yes, you are correct, there are very few clubs running WGT outdoors in the summer.  So, even if we change to WGT, this does not mean we will be able to travel to races in BC (or Washington) and be mixing it up in 30 car fields of asphalt WGT....  However, at least we'll be running a standard ROAR class.  So, when I'm advertising Speed Weekend 2011, and people are asking about the pan car class, I don't have to reply with:  "Uh... yes, it's WGT... sort of.  Just double up on the battery, find a 10.5, we'll lend you a GTP body, and THEN you can race with us....".


Blake

[Melbatoast]

With regard to the heat, I'm not 100% clear on it but as I understand it with lower voltage but high amp draw, heat becomes a serious concern. 

The CRC purple is their WGT spec tire.  I ran some BSR purples (same tire) and they were great - duro is 38-43 http://www.johnsbsrracing.com/foam/10thscale.html  The Jaco lilac is good too, but as you know the rims are pretty crappy, at least for those of us that clip walls.  The only decent pair of tires I have left are some lilac rears that I ran a lot.

I take your point about wanting a class people outside can understand - in that case the 2s/17.5 powertrain fits the spec and would be my preferred setup.  We could always go to 10.5 touring car and no one would have to buy new junk <-that means I'm kidding, everyone.

[Jtg.73]

Wow. there is a lot going on here. I'm going to have to read it a couple of times. I will say I had a tough first season with a few only a few good days. But the support was phenomenal. But  I do love this class and I want to race it again next year in whatever format will best suit everyone.  I'm all for tightening up the field and being more competitive. That means less broken parts for me! 

[dajracer]

I won't be out this weekend but I am going to take the lead out of my pan car and set it up for WGT with a 13.5 for the next weekend. I don't have spec tires but at least we might be able to figure some gearing and see if there is a heat problem.

[Gorden]

I won't be out this weekend but I am going to take the lead out of my pan car and set it up for WGT with a 13.5 for the next weekend. I don't have spec tires but at least we might be able to figure some gearing and see if there is a heat problem.

1 or 2 cell ?

[Big_gord24]

Hey guys...just for some insight when I ran the WGT car before speed weekend I was using the spec jaco wgt tires Body and 13.5 motor. The car handled well, actualy way better than I expected. Phil is corect the slower motor meant nothing as i was quite fast down the straightaway, outrunning 10.5 cars. The largest regulator of speed is definatly the 1 cell pack. From an outside perspective I like Micks sugestion of another transition year for the width rule, keeping the 10.5 motor that people are already using to keep costs down but limiting to a 1 cell pack which most racers also have if they run 1/12th scale in the winter. I've got some talking to do to convince the rest of OGR to include a WGT class this seasonon this side of the water but I hope that things can work out. I enjoy running the pro 10 class but my cars are just too old to stay together. I'd definatly buy a new chassis to run with you guys.