The Great Pro10/World GT Debate!

[DekelzMan]

Pro10 has been around since the early to mid-1980’s where it was an extremely popular class. Like Touring Cars today, there were many flavours of Pro10, spanning the capabilities, and pocketbooks, of every racer. In North America, Pro10 died a slow death in the mid-90’s when most of the beginning and average racers gave up, as the speeds were beginning to get out of hand, they became costly and even dangerous.

Pro10 continues to grow in Europe and is still an incredibly popular class. They have one major advantage over us here in North America; they have some really REALLY nice 1/8th scale tracks they can run on and really let them see their true potential.

We are not so lucky...

This year in Pro10, in my opinion, we are starting to see some cracks in our formula. Our numbers were not down, at least not uniquely, all classes have shown signs of weakness, due in part to the economy, but mostly due to a lot of our, shall we say, middle-aged group of racers buying houses, fixing houses, getting married, getting un-married, all of which have taken their toll on the week to week numbers. Pro10 held it’s own in terms of numbers, but we started to see a pretty healthy gap from the top of the leader board on down, almost like we were running two classes.

Thats not good...

Trying to analyze why this is happening, you can pinpoint a few factors:

Technology, Money, and Skill level

Technology:
This year was the year of the programmable speed control and all it’s intricacies. We embraced LiPos and Brushless the year before but this year was all about getting the most out of the little black boxes. There were more Laptops than tire truers in the pits this year!

Money:
Pro10 was a secondary or even tertiary class for most drivers this year and as such funds needed to be allocated to two or more classes. Me, I could throw all the money I wanted into it, and quite frankly it showed...I had nothing exotic, but I did have a brand new car and enough tires to run a different set every run, including practice time and that in-itself is a contributing factor to a successful, and believe it or not, economical season...and I’ll explain that part to anyone who wants to hear it, just not here and now

Skill Level:
Like any other class, and in any other sport for that matter, you cannot replace good old practice, practice, practice, when it comes to getting better. That being said, when you’re dealing with a rear wheel drive car, a ballistically fast motor, high downforce bodies, and a smallish sized track, you have a formula for disaster. The difference between the fastest and slowest cars on any given race day was as much as 5 laps in a 5 minute race. Quite frankly, thats no fun for anyone. Those of us that have had the years of track time have developed a decent respect for the speed whereas some of our newer drivers have not yet had enough time to really get a feel for and understanding of what it takes to keep these things running fast and consistent. I have done everything possible for as many guys as I can this year to get their cars handling reasonably well but teaching someone how to drive is simply not easy to do.

So all that being said I would like to propose some major changes to this class which will hopefully help it to grow, bring the costs down, and promote better competition throughout the field.

Enter World GT.

When this class was first introduced a few years ago I was the first to call it a lame duck. “Lets slow them down, put big GT bodies on them, run one tire compound and narrow them up.” Wee....

Now, 4 years later and seeing first hand what happens when you let things get a little out of hand I’m starting to see the light...

All these factors make perfect sense if the goal is to have a highly competitive, economical class which promotes good driving, not deep pockets, and I think thats all that a racer is looking for really...

On to the proposed specifications as per ROAR:


____________________________________________________________________

Length: 560mm
Width: 205mm
Minimum Height: 104mm
Weight: 930gm
Rear Wing: Chord Width: 45mm Min, 200mm Max
Rear Wing Side Dam: Length:45mm, Height: 20mm
Tire type:
Foam only
World GT shall use the World GT control tires for Level 3, 4, and 5 events.

Battery Cells:
World GT Pro: 2s, 7.4v nominal lipo battery
World GT Standard: 1s, 3.7v nominal lipo battery

Transmission: Single speed only

Rear suspension and drive:
Single, one-piece drive axle only
No independent suspension allowed

Body style:
Can-Am/GTP/WSC, GT/GT-1/Trans-Am or World GT

World GT body rules:
Bodies must be based on production front engine - rear drive autos
Body must be a replica of an original, 2 door sports/gt production car or based on
a full sized auto which has been raced in a major series (Speed World Challenge,
FIA GT Championship, ALMS GT1 + GT2, Japanese GT Championship, etc.)
Bodies must be of a model year no older than 10 years prior to the year of
submittal.
Bodies deemed unrealistic or out of scale will not be approved. The burden of
proof lies with the manufacturer to provide documentation for submitted bodies.
Acceptable documentation for proof of scale realism shall be pictures of original
1:1 car from the top, front, rear and sides and or manufacturers dimensional data
for production vehicle
Overall roof height shall be measured with the car ready too run.
The rear of the body must be trimmed no more than 40mm higher than the ground
level with the body mounted.
Minimum dimension, center base of body windshield to intersection of hood and
front grill 135mm
Minimum body width at the base of the windshield 145mm
Maximum body width: 205mm
Minimum body material thickness .030” to be measured by a cut out in the upper
rear or front windshield

World GT wing rules:
Wing must be fastened to the rear deck of body
Rear Wing may not be higher than roof height

Wheel arch cut-outs: Maximum 0.375” over tire diameter

Ground clearance
Minimum 4 mm under all parts of the vehicle excluding the spur gear.

Roll Over antennas are not allowed

_________________________________________________________________

Now those are the ROAR rules and we can align ourselves completely or we can make changes for our club races. If we wanted to take part in a sanctioned race those are the rules we’d need to abide by.

Personally, I’d like to see us run the new World GT with full rules compliance on chassis and bodies but continue to run 10.5, with 1 cell or 2 cell, with the control tire, which means, there is ONE compound of tire only, so no one can run anything but that one compound of tire. There are I believe, 4 different manufacturers for these controlled tires but all will yield the same traction. If and when we wanted to run these cars indoor, we would run the 13.5 motor recommended.

OK, enough blather from me, this should be an interesting discussion and one we have plenty of time to discuss before the Spring!

Lets try and keep this discussion to IROCC club members only please!

[RC51]

Thanks for the thought you have put into this, Mick.

My two bits are pretty straight forward: Keep the cost and speed down, tighten up the field and completely spec the class with the exception of the ESC.

First and to your prime question, I fully support a WGT complete spec move with a clear view to keeping costs down in the club. To achieve this, I would propose ensuring as much cross-over from indoor and TC racing as possible. To be specific, what if we kept the WGT specs as endorsed by ROAR, but allow two-cell LiPo and 17.5 only. Less weight and the same power plant would make these faster than TC 17.5 with the speedo technology. I am sure we can all agree that the 17.5 and speedo technology make the TC as fast as 19T used to be (or faster). We could use one battery type for outdoor and the same motors.

10.5 and 13.5 motors are, in my opinion, completely arbitrary and have nothing to do with any particular class. Unless we kept both of these motors to one-cell, we are perpetuating the problem of speed/cost/fragmentation with a narrower chassis and body. In the event that we run a WGT spec event, throw in a 13.5 if need be, but there would be no need, in my mind, to buy another single-cell battery type solely to satisfy this class. If this is too much of a departure from WGT standards (just the motor, really), then I would suggest going to WGT expert standards with single cell and 10.5. This has super fast straight speed but is very drivable from what I have tested.

My $0.02.
P.

[RC51]

BTW - good to see ROAR allowed 205mm for chassis and body width. This allows Corally NGX 10 to be allowed (204mm) with a simple purchase of axle and hubs. Holes are pre-drilled for front width.

P.

[Falcon]

I like this idea of having a SPEC class because everybody is in the same boat. Also the cost is better and we might even have more people racing. This is the real reason so that we have a large amount of people having FUN out there.

IROCC

[Blake]

Thanks for preparing all the background info Mick; very well presented.

The point that hit home for me was your comment about there being 5 laps between the slow and fast racers in a 5 minute race.  Definitely not good for anyone.


Without giving it too much thought (yet), I like the idea of the World GT Standard spec: 1s, 3.7v and our existing 10.5 motors.

This arrangement lets everyone use their existing 1s batteries from indoor, and their existing 10.5 motors from Pro10.  This would have the least impact on most racers because the only thing they would need to purchase is a new body and tires.

Phil, you have claimed to have done some 1s/10.5BL testing.  Can you tell us how fast this setup is?  I would hope for something faster than Stock TC 17.5 but slower than existing Pro10.


My biggest concern is that there are some racers that have wide chassis that CANNOT be narrowed to 205mm for World GT.  I'd like to hear from these racers.  Would you buy a new chassis?  Or, stop racing pan car?  Or, stop racing with IROCC altogether?


Blake

[DekelzMan]

Hey Blake, thanks for your comments.

For those with wider chassis that aren't willing or in a position to buy a new one, I would propose we let them run their wider chassis with the same specs in every way except the chassis width, so we'd require a similar style of GT body (I'm sure there are plenty, we could come up with recommendations..) If by chance they happen to be out handling the rest of us then we may have to make some modifications. I would consider next season yet another transitional year which would allow them a whole year and half to make a new purchase.

Hmmm?

[RC51]

Hi, Blake.

I raced the 10.5 1s setup at the Big Chill on carpet last year. The WGT car would have qualified me 3rd overall in TC 13.5 and I totally took a wild a** guess on gearing. It was ballistic on the straight once it spooled up and that was running with v199. The low end was a bit squishy likely due to the 3.7v. I suspect the car would need the weight on asphalt, though (harder tires and lower downforce bodies), so 2s would help with that.

I am confident that 2s 17.5 would be a fair bit faster than TC stock - there is at least a 30% power to weight ratio gain (400 grams lighter), less drive train power loss an heat gain etc.
P.

[Blake]

For those with wider chassis that aren't willing or in a position to buy a new one, I would propose we let them run their wider chassis with the same specs in every way except the chassis width, so we'd require a similar style of GT body (I'm sure there are plenty, we could come up with recommendations..) If by chance they happen to be out handling the rest of us then we may have to make some modifications. I would consider next season yet another transitional year which would allow them a whole year and half to make a new purchase.

Yeah, good idea Mick.

Blake

[gotnitro]

I have a corally that can be adjusted to 200 mil i would have to find out the cost to do so.

[Blake]

Hi, Blake.

I raced the 10.5 1s setup at the Big Chill on carpet last year. The WGT car would have qualified me 3rd overall in TC 13.5 and I totally took a wild a** guess on gearing. It was ballistic on the straight once it spooled up and that was running with v199. The low end was a bit squishy likely due to the 3.7v. I suspect the car would need the weight on asphalt, though (harder tires and lower downforce bodies), so 2s would help with that.

I am confident that 2s 17.5 would be a fair bit faster than TC stock - there is at least a 30% power to weight ratio gain (400 grams lighter), less drive train power loss an heat gain etc.
P.

Thanks for the data Phil.  I suppose 2s 17.5 could work but that might force some racers into buying a second 17.5 motor if they wanted to run the two electric classes.  Plus, WGT typically uses a 13.5 or 10.5 so I was *hoping* to stay as close to that spec as possible.

Blake

[Blake]

I should re-iterate that we want to hear from EVERYONE in the club that has an interest in 10th Scale Pan Car.

If you feel that we should forget the rest of North America, and ROAR, and just stick with our Pro10 spec as-is, please say it here.  Don't hold back and don't be shy.  But, please be as constructive and level headed as possible!


Blake

[RC51]

Hi, Blake.

I totally agree about the spec matching - I think, though, that the 13.5 with 2S would be similar to where we are now - 200gr less weight - so it's close.

P.

[BCbud]

Thanks for preparing all the background info Mick; very well presented.

The point that hit home for me was your comment about there being 5 laps between the slow and fast racers in a 5 minute race.  Definitely not good for anyone.


Without giving it too much thought (yet), I like the idea of the World GT Standard spec: 1s, 3.7v and our existing 10.5 motors.

This arrangement lets everyone use their existing 1s batteries from indoor, and their existing 10.5 motors from Pro10.  This would have the least impact on most racers because the only thing they would need to purchase is a new body and tires.

Phil, you have claimed to have done some 1s/10.5BL testing.  Can you tell us how fast this setup is?  I would hope for something faster than Stock TC 17.5 but slower than existing Pro10.


My biggest concern is that there are some racers that have wide chassis that CANNOT be narrowed to 205mm for World GT.  I'd like to hear from these racers.  Would you buy a new chassis?  Or, stop racing pan car?  Or, stop racing with IROCC altogether?


Blake

Good day!

I would be one of the slower drivers with a car that can not be mad narrowed to the 205mm. If I could use my 10.5 and 1 cells from indoors and my GTB then I would try my best to buy a new/used chassis. Tires and bodies are things that I would have to buy anyway so that is not a concern. The only thing that will still keep me slow (besides my driving skill) would be the GTB but maybe by the next outdoor season I could manage to pick up a 2nd Tekin.

Neil.

[BCbud]

Hi, Blake.

I totally agree about the spec matching - I think, though, that the 13.5 with 2S would be similar to where we are now - 200gr less weight - so it's close.

P.

Isn't the idea of chainging to slow this class down a bit and make it more inviting for new drivers and make the racing mor even? If we are trying to keep it the same then why chaingre at all?

[RC51]

That's my point, Neil. 13.5 2s in a 200mm car is not much slower than we are now. I believe Blake's initial intent from his post at he beginning of the season was to potentially bring the club in line with the rest of the world.
P.

[BCbud]

That's my point, Neil. 13.5 2s in a 200mm car is not much slower than we are now. I believe Blake's initial intent from his post at he beginning of the season was to potentially bring the club in line with the rest of the world.
P.

I was thinking of the 10.5 with 1 cell, that would slow it down woudin't it?

[RC51]

Yes on the infield but not so much on the straight. I really liked the feel of the 1s on carpet but I am not sure about the weight on asphalt. Maybe too light - but I have no experience there.

P.

[Blake]

Isn't the idea of chainging to slow this class down a bit and make it more inviting for new drivers and make the racing mor even? If we are trying to keep it the same then why chaingre at all?

At the end of last winter's season I did announce that we'd be looking at possibly changing Pro10 for Summer 2011.  And the idea was to better align with the rest of North America, ROAR, and the WGT spec.

Now, after racing this whole summer, and watching the decline in numbers, and the big variance in our Pro10 laptimes, it seems that a little "slowing" of the class might help the class.

So, now there are TWO benefits of moving to WGT:  Alignment with everyone else, and hopefully tighter pan car racing at IROCC.

So, yes, I think whatever spec we choose, it must be more inviting (slower) to the newer racers than our current ballistic 2s 10.5 setup.  To me, the simplest change is simply reducing the battery from 2s to 1s.


Blake

[Blake]

Yes on the infield but not so much on the straight. I really liked the feel of the 1s on carpet but I am not sure about the weight on asphalt. Maybe too light - but I have no experience there.

P.

Yeah, it would be awesome to test this.  I *might* be able to arrange this for this Sunday.  I can remove my 2s and put one of my 12th Scale 1s packs in its place, along with my 12th Scale voltage booster.  My car is already at the WGT 200mm width, so the only pieces I am missing are the body and spec tires.  It might at least give an idea of how well the setup would work on asphalt.

Blake

[RC51]

While I agree, Blake, I just remembered the spur/pinion issue. 1s requires a larger pinion and if running 48P outdoor, some cars - t-bars in particular - may require shifting to 64P. Daj did that with no trouble but I suspect spur issues will be exacerbated.

P.

[gotnitro]

hey phil i am looking to see what it costs to change to the 200mm looks like 150.00 not including exchange rate or shipping so probably 200.00 might as well get a new car for that amount. Am i in the right ball park ya think.

[gotnitro]

looked on corrally usa and looks more like 90.00 not including exchange or shipping...not to bad

[Melbatoast]

They went to 1s 10.5 in the UK and according to at least one guy it has killed the class.  One issue that contributed is that heat on that setup is quite brutal, particularly on a comparatively big track.

Today was a sad day.
I was the only pan car there today (had to run with the 10.5 Tourers).
I fear the class is now dead as many have sold their cars
(shame that a few of our club members talk on here about how good the car is, but have never raced).
On way home I purchased a new Touring car, and will now mothball the pan cars.
Pan cars RIP

Our problem very different.
Class was looking great when we had the 2s LiPo cars with HPI 20T Saturn motors running with 4cell 10.5 cars, but .......
the BRCA made the National rules that stipulated cars must ONLY run 1s 3.7v, with GT2 for 10.5 motors and GT1 for Modified.
It is the 1s issue that made many pack their cars away or sell them, as most wanted to use the same 2s LiPo's they have for their Touring cars.
I have tried to get the 2s classes back to run along side the 1s classes, but they are not interested as it is not BRCA recognised rules.
I have been running 1s 10.5 outdoors and have had many reliability issues, like I now have to recharge the RX pack every run (don't even go there with a booster cos I still have the wrecked cars) and the 1s packs take up to 90 minutes to recharge after a 5 minute race @ 6amps (2s only takes around 50 minutes on same setting) and temperatures are very high but not so much on the can, it is the wires and esc getting hot, so much so that I often find the solder joints (internal and external) melted.
1s has killed the class at our track, but it works for those clubs running indoors on small tight tracks.
Until the BRCA makes rules for 2s set ups I doubt you'd find many clubs here running pan cars or F1 cars outdoors.

So, there you go - one guy has been through it.  We certainly may not have the same sort of problem, but the battery charging and wire de-soldering may be something to consider.

I like the class as it is, even though I was hardly competitive.  The biggest issue is tires - the Saanich event blew away all my tires and I only ran one day, and even regular days could be hard if I was hitting stuff.  Then, buying new tires was always a gut check because I didn't really know what compounds to grab AND finding a supplier with a decent stock was a little challenging.  The best suppliers are R/C oval shops, but they're in the southeast US so shipping cost and timeline are unreasonable.  If I race again this season I won't be running pan because I don't want to buy tires.

I found that the WGT spec compound worked pretty well everywhere, so, even keeping the mechanical specs as-is and going to a spec tire compound would probably improve the situation quite well. 

But if we want to change wholesale, I'm with Phil on the 2s 17.5 setup, as it would be relatively fast and easier on electronics.  Conforming to ROAR WGT rules is probably a zero-sum game because who in North America runs outdoor WGT?  There are probably just as many clubs, if not more, running some kind of Pro10-type or non-spec GT class.

Anyhow...

Ross

[WhoDoYouThink]

World GT Pro gets my vote, especially after reading Ross's post!

I already have a decent 2C battery and I've melted down pretty much all of my 19 turn motors trying to be competitive speed wise, so for next season I'll need to  go the brushless route anyways!

[Blake]

Thanks for the post Ross; good to hear input from other clubs going through a similar transition.

I always had decent success with tires, even the really soft Whites.  When I ran Pro10 last summer, I could race four weekends on a set which was acceptable.  It's good to hear that the WGT spec tires are workable on asphalt.  Do you know where they fit in the durometer scale?  And, are they 100% foam, or is there some rubber content like CRC Pink/Magenta/Purple tire family?

I don't understand the heat issue they are describing with 1s.  Why would a 1s setup cause heating issues on the solder posts?  I do agree that 1s is a pain for electronics because you need a voltage booster, but we ran those with high success last winter.

And yes, you are correct, there are very few clubs running WGT outdoors in the summer.  So, even if we change to WGT, this does not mean we will be able to travel to races in BC (or Washington) and be mixing it up in 30 car fields of asphalt WGT....  However, at least we'll be running a standard ROAR class.  So, when I'm advertising Speed Weekend 2011, and people are asking about the pan car class, I don't have to reply with:  "Uh... yes, it's WGT... sort of.  Just double up on the battery, find a 10.5, we'll lend you a GTP body, and THEN you can race with us....".


Blake

[Melbatoast]

With regard to the heat, I'm not 100% clear on it but as I understand it with lower voltage but high amp draw, heat becomes a serious concern. 

The CRC purple is their WGT spec tire.  I ran some BSR purples (same tire) and they were great - duro is 38-43 http://www.johnsbsrracing.com/foam/10thscale.html  The Jaco lilac is good too, but as you know the rims are pretty crappy, at least for those of us that clip walls.  The only decent pair of tires I have left are some lilac rears that I ran a lot.

I take your point about wanting a class people outside can understand - in that case the 2s/17.5 powertrain fits the spec and would be my preferred setup.  We could always go to 10.5 touring car and no one would have to buy new junk <-that means I'm kidding, everyone.

[Jtg.73]

Wow. there is a lot going on here. I'm going to have to read it a couple of times. I will say I had a tough first season with a few only a few good days. But the support was phenomenal. But  I do love this class and I want to race it again next year in whatever format will best suit everyone.  I'm all for tightening up the field and being more competitive. That means less broken parts for me! 

[dajracer]

I won't be out this weekend but I am going to take the lead out of my pan car and set it up for WGT with a 13.5 for the next weekend. I don't have spec tires but at least we might be able to figure some gearing and see if there is a heat problem.

[Gorden]

I won't be out this weekend but I am going to take the lead out of my pan car and set it up for WGT with a 13.5 for the next weekend. I don't have spec tires but at least we might be able to figure some gearing and see if there is a heat problem.

1 or 2 cell ?

[Big_gord24]

Hey guys...just for some insight when I ran the WGT car before speed weekend I was using the spec jaco wgt tires Body and 13.5 motor. The car handled well, actualy way better than I expected. Phil is corect the slower motor meant nothing as i was quite fast down the straightaway, outrunning 10.5 cars. The largest regulator of speed is definatly the 1 cell pack. From an outside perspective I like Micks sugestion of another transition year for the width rule, keeping the 10.5 motor that people are already using to keep costs down but limiting to a 1 cell pack which most racers also have if they run 1/12th scale in the winter. I've got some talking to do to convince the rest of OGR to include a WGT class this seasonon this side of the water but I hope that things can work out. I enjoy running the pro 10 class but my cars are just too old to stay together. I'd definatly buy a new chassis to run with you guys.

[dajracer]

Gord, I am going to run as a 1 cell.

[Gorden]

Gord, I am going to run as a 1 cell.

if it helps I roll out at 53 - 55 with my 13.5 and a 2 cell

[Blake]

Great feedback from everyone!  Nice to see a touchy discusson thread not go off the rails.

Ryan, thanks for your input as well.  Initially we had asked for IROCC input, but you and your group were basically displaced IROCCers this past year, and we love racing with you guys, so it's good to get input from your side of the water too.  Better compatibility across the water is definitely a big goal!

Do any IROCCers have any WGT spec tires that I could try for a couple of runs this Sunday?


Blake

[roofrider]

As one of the drivers that is always 5 or so laps behind and always having to pull over when the faster guys go by I would love to see the class slow down, run WGT per say, I would be able to concentrate more on my driving. as it stands right now I am ready to shelve the thing for the rest of the year. it just isn't any fun, and lets face it that's why I am there to begin with.Just like Phil that's my 2 cents worth
Don

[Gorden]

As one of the drivers that is always 5 or so laps behind and always having to pull over when the faster guys go by I would love to see the class slow down, run WGT per say, I would be able to concentrate more on my driving. as it stands right now I am ready to shelve the thing for the rest of the year. it just isn't any fun, and lets face it that's why I am there to begin with.Just like Phil that's my 2 cents worth
Don

Don I agree with you. But we will still be a few laps behind like in 1/12 scale last year there would be about 4/5  laps from the A-main to the C/D Mains the fast guys will always be fast no mater what is used for power.
Its the driving skills that keep them fast not the motor/battery.

But the racing would be closer for drivers that normally race in the same heats

I would like to see a Spec class here but maybe with the 17.5 and 2 cell then there is no need for the boosters 

Gorden

[gotnitro]

Just so you all know i was once a slow guy but after seven years i have gotten faster due to practice and new equipment. New technology does help but most of all its practice practice practice. As well the club has always helped to understand how the cars work and slow is fast race your race not the guy that's five laps on you. So if you have been around now for 2 or 3 years and you still cant keep up to the pack, just wait a few more years and you will see a huge improvement. I have the A main first place win write up from last years 12 scale race hanging on my wall to prove it....lol

[Jtg.73]

Blake I have a brand new set of Jaco lilac rears to donate to the cause. I believe those are wgt spec

[Blake]

Blake I have a brand new set of Jaco lilac rears to donate to the cause. I believe those are wgt spec

Cool, thanks John.  I just need them for Sunday, and then you can have them back.  Will you be there on Sunday?

Blake

[DekelzMan]

Blake, please let me know what time you'll do the demo run and I'll make every effort to be there

Mick

[Blake]

Blake, please let me know what time you'll do the demo run and I'll make every effort to be there

Mick

Hi Mick,

It might be weather dependent, but I am planning on testing a few times during the raceday, both with Stock TC and Pro10, just to see the speed/handling differences between all cars.  I don't think I'll be able to run in practice, so the first run will probably be around 11:30AM ish.

Question:  Should I remove Thomas' extra-stiffening double-side-spring setup from my car for this test?

Blake

[Blake]

I was planning on fitting one of my Touring Car bodies to my pan car for my test since they are close-ish to the actual WGT bodies.

Does anyone happen to have an actual WGT body (drilled for the CRC Gen-X10) that I could use instead?  JohnG, you had one didn't you?


Blake

[DekelzMan]

Hey Blake,

My recommendation on the spring thing would be that you can safely pull them out for 1 cell but I'd keep them in for the 2 cell. I think Matt also had a World GT body mounted on his XRAY.

I'll get there when I can.

Mick

[Jtg.73]

Can't say for sure if I will be there this Sunday or not. If I am it's just to watch and learn I am not running my pan car for the rest of the year.

I am meeting with John B tonight to buy a 12th scale care from him so I will swing by your house and drop of the tires.

And yes I do have that Corvette body still.  Nice and clean only one day of racing on it so you can have that to do some testing as well.

I will bring that too.

Cheers,

John

[Jtg.73]

As one of the drivers that is always 5 or so laps behind and always having to pull over when the faster guys go by I would love to see the class slow down, run WGT per say, I would be able to concentrate more on my driving. as it stands right now I am ready to shelve the thing for the rest of the year. it just isn't any fun, and lets face it that's why I am there to begin with.Just like Phil that's my 2 cents worth
Don

Don:

I think the reason some of us slower guys are getting that many laps down is simple.  There just aren't enough drivers to make up and fill out heats such as B,C, and D.  As a result our Pro 10 mains usually end up being a mish mash of rookies and top drivers all in A and B mains and that's it. It's only natural that the slower guys are going to be put that many laps down.  If more guys ran these cars there we would be able to have more heats with all the drivers more  closely matched in skill level resulting in closer racing for everyone.  Pretty much how it is indoors because everyone runs the same setup.

John G.

[Jtg.73]

Having said that,  I hope the end result of this restructuring is that more people will run pan cars.

[rcshadow]

Hey Blake;

   I used some of the WGT Spec Llilac Tires this season and part of last season. Front and back. I even used them at the Richmond race, I did have to change them for some green rears but that said, they seemed to work, I think they came in after a few rounds so truing may be a factor. I can bring some gently worn front and rears if you want to try the whole thing this sunday, weather permitting or course.  I am only planning on running nitro if the day turns out nice .....which it is supposed to RIGHT MOTHER NATURE....lmao...

[Tom]

Wow, lots of posts to wade through.

A couple points.

• A 1 cell setup will require twice the current for the same power as a 2 cell setup.  As it is, it's the motors that limit the power we can use in these cars.  So, the increased current demands to achieve similar power levels with half the voltage will be super hard on equipment.  I think this is a bad idea.  I like how lithium batteries can handle the abuse we put them through; I'd be afraid to see how a 1 cell setup would handle double the abuse (actually, more than double as the efficiency goes way down).
• As has been said above, the spread between the fastest cars and the slowest cars isn't due to the speed of the cars, but rather the skill of the drivers.  If we want less of a spread between 1st and last in every race, we need more racers (making more races), pure and simple.  We've got a similar spread in every class we run.

Personally, I love how Pro 10 is fast, and how fun the cars are to drive when they're set up properly and run on rails.  The chassis needs lots of power to handle properly; a slow car generates little downforce, so it doesn't handle well.

I don't see what the appeal is if the cars are made to run slower.

As far as cars spinning out is concerned, this isn't due to having too much power, rather it's all in the setup.  You'd be hard pressed to spin out Blake's yellow lightning bolt when it's competitive.  Given how simple these cars are, it's not too expensive to make chassis adjustments.

I don't like how we're an island when it comes to this class, and if we want to run it anywhere else, it's put on as a courtesy for us to run together.  I'd love to see us be able to meet up with other groups who run the same cars.

Having said that, the reality is we are on an island.  It seems that we've started to pique the interest of some other clubs, as can be seen by Ryan's attempt last weekend, and Franko's run in Central Saanich Daze.  Maybe the right thing to do is continue on as is, and have others join up with our formula.

What I don't want to see is changing the class so it looses its essence, and turns into something that's hard on equipment (1 cell), or doesn't handle (slower, or no GTP body).

[Blake]

I can bring some gently worn front and rears if you want to try the whole thing this sunday, weather permitting or course.

Thanks Glenn.  Yes, please bring these tires on Sunday.

Blake

[Blake]

A 1 cell setup will require twice the current for the same power as a 2 cell setup.  As it is, it's the motors that limit the power we can use in these cars.  So, the increased current demands to achieve similar power levels with half the voltage will be super hard on equipment.  I think this is a bad idea.  I like how lithium batteries can handle the abuse we put them through; I'd be afraid to see how a 1 cell setup would handle double the abuse (actually, more than double as the efficiency goes way down

Ok good to know; that might explain the situation Ross was quoting.

However, there are currently a field of 1s 10.5 WGT cars circling the high-bite carpet track in Vegas, and there was a field of 1s 13.5 WGT circling a large outdoor asphalt track in California (ROAR Nats) back in August.  So, 1s with 10.5 or 13.5 is definitely electronically possible, and in fact, is the typical setup in the North American real world.

[RC51]

... so here's a shift in Europe: The European Pan series for indoor is running 1/12 GTP and 1/10 WGT. WGT has two classes: 1s 10.5 and 2s 17.5. Check it out: http://www.epsraces.net/Rules.htm

P.

[roofrider]

I agree that there is no replacement for the skills of the driver, and one day I may be there. However until then I am not the only one that suffers due to the lack of numbers. You could ask why are the numbers down ? I cannot answer that alone, personally I am somewhat discouraged because of it and when I put my car on the shelf that's one less and then the next guy etc. etc. get the picture. I don't know what the solution is I just know what is right for me and to continue as I am (not enjoying pro 10) I should concentrate on the one class I enjoy. You all know that we are there because we enjoy it.
I guess I am up to $0.04 now.

[Arch]

  Some where along the line "playing with toy cars " turned into F1 racing.Not here to bitch just stateing my 2cents

[jarrodH]

arch, it asnt changed that much(as for cost)..,tires are goin to cost what tires cost, parts break when they break....and the only real difference in electronics is the cost of the esc.. a brushless motor is only like 20$ more than a high quallity brushed motor.. for the lipo batteries.. u have to buy batteries anyway one year or another.. and the cost a of a good 6cell nimh battery is the same, or darn close to a decent lipo, witch last longer..

makin a bigger deal than it really is..

anyways..


i like the way the pan cars look with the gtp bodies.. i like how they are faster and harder to drive. tho i dont race one, i have done laps with a few, and i liked it alot...was a blast

i think goin to a spec tire would help alot by itself..

[Arch]

I never mentioned cost at all.Its the difference in the amount of laps between 1st and 2nd ,2nd and 3rd,and so on.Geez lighten upJrod

[Shawn68z]

 Just a quick point about this class.  I like having so much power in the car that you actually have to learn how to drive it to keep it on the track.  If we could run 4.5 it would make me even happier, because all those fancy top dollar speedos dont make a difference when you cant hook the power up. 

 If you switch to WGT spec, its a matter of who has this weeks speedo and software just like in touring. 

So what it comes down to for myself is, keep it fast ( I personally like it right now),  or if the club does decide to WGT it, then go one step further and have the guys with the fancy speedos run the ROAR Spec firmware, that doesnt have the Boost, and turbo functions enabled.   Then you would have closer to a spec series that is slower, and doesnt force people to buy new speedos.

Cheers,
Shawn.

[DekelzMan]

I just came across a great thread on RC Tech that has been going on since World GT started:

http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric-road/280257-world-gt-body-debate-thread.html

It's actually about the World GT Spec bodies but the class itself is brought up numerous times. Answers a lot of our questions and brings up many more….Worth a read if you have a few hours, LOL, I'm about 9 pages in and it's already had replies from a few of the body manufacturers…

A few buckets more food for thought…..

[BCbud]

 However, at least we'll be running a standard ROAR class.  So, when I'm advertising Speed Weekend 2011, and people are asking about the pan car class, I don't have to reply with:  "Uh... yes, it's WGT... sort of.  Just double up on the battery, find a 10.5, we'll lend you a GTP body, and THEN you can race with us....".

Blake

Good day!

As I have been looking at the different cars for this class, some like BMI and Associated will only fit a 1 cell so they could not be fitted with a 2 cell and a 13.5 to race with us.

 

 If you switch to WGT spec, its a matter of who has this weeks speedo and software just like in touring. 

Cheers,
Shawn.

With more and more of the timing adjustable ESC's coming out with a no boost setting, we could concider running with no boost. That would make the cars more even and allow for less expensive, non boosted ESC's to be used and make it easyer for new drivers to enter the hobby.

My .02 worth for today, Neil.

[DekelzMan]

Hmmmm…I don't like the road this is going down suddenly….

I don't want to see WorldGT turning into the entry level class. I think slowing the cars down to make things a little more even makes sense but dumbing this down to 1 cell, 17.5 no boost will make this a yawn-fest. I'd make touring STOCK the no-boost class and make WorldGT the higher performance of the two....

[cyrrus]

Niel

the bmi can take both single cell and double cells packs.  and yes that is for both the reg bmi and the new copper head. 

Andrew

[BCbud]

Hmmmm…I don't like the road this is going down suddenly….

I don't want to see WorldGT turning into the entry level class. I think slowing the cars down to make things a little more even makes sense but dumbing this down to 1 cell, 17.5 no boost will make this a yawn-fest. I'd make touring STOCK the no-boost class and make WorldGT the higher performance of the two....

1 cell 10.5

[BCbud]

Hmmmm…I don't like the road this is going down suddenly….

I don't want to see WorldGT turning into the entry level class. I think slowing the cars down to make things a little more even makes sense but dumbing this down to 1 cell, 17.5 no boost will make this a yawn-fest. I'd make touring STOCK the no-boost class and make WorldGT the higher performance of the two....

That would make more sence. I would not like to see the pro-10/ WGT be too slow. Sorry for the short responce befor, I got called away with customers.

[BCbud]

Niel

the bmi can take both single cell and double cells packs.  and yes that is for both the reg bmi and the new copper head. 

Andrew

Thanks for correcting me on that!

[Big_gord24]

Hmmmm…I don't like the road this is going down suddenly….

I don't want to see WorldGT turning into the entry level class. I think slowing the cars down to make things a little more even makes sense but dumbing this down to 1 cell, 17.5 no boost will make this a yawn-fest. I'd make touring STOCK the no-boost class and make WorldGT the higher performance of the two....

It looks like that is whats hapening over here. The 17.5 Touring class will be zero timing after the Big Chill. I've seen the pan cars with no boost and you feel like kicking them down the straight they are so slow. The WGT will be 13.5 here... mainly because there is no longer a 13.5 touring and there is an abundance of 13.5 motors. But for outdoor 10.5 would be the motor i'd want to run, they are still quick with the 1 cell and boost.

[Gorden]

I say if it's not broke don't try to fix it.
We've been having a lot of fun with the way it is and I see no need to change it

My 2 Cents

[BCbud]

I say if it's not broke don't try to fix it.
We've been having a lot of fun with the way it is and I see no need to change it

My 2 Cents

I for one would not race in the pro ten if it stays the same as it is no fun spending most of the race trying to keep out of the way of the better/faster drivers. As it was said early in this thread, if we have more drivers like touring stock then this would not be as mutch of a problem but I don't see that hapening.

[Gorden]

I for one would not race in the pro ten if it stays the same as it is no fun spending most of the race trying to keep out of the way of the better/faster drivers. As it was said early in this thread, if we have more drivers like touring stock then this would not be as mutch of a problem but I don't see that hapening.

I run into the same problem with Nitro... but I'll will still get out and race.
and it's like you say if we had more drivers we would not have this problem
of the fast and slower drivers

[weekend camper]

I think the question of how to get more than 12 guys to show up before track set up on a perfectly good Sunday is a more worthy debate.

[Shawn68z]

I think the question of how to get more than 12 guys to show up before track set up on a perfectly good Sunday is a more worthy debate.

I was just wondering what type of turn out the other clubs in vancouver are getting for WGT (Outdoor) and for WGT Indoor?   

 I know some of the members want to be inline with the rest of the world, but why? If our club can field a successfull class then who cares what they are running somewhere else!  I dont want to see the same number of cars on the track, just driving slower.

If IROCC fields WGT (Say a 10.5, 1 Cell, with boost) will their be more cars at our club races on a weekly basis? Or only on the odd occasion when the club runs Speedweekend and Saanich?
 And  on the odd occasions that our club (or as individuals) goto Vancouver to run WGT, most of the cars our can be easily converted to WGT for that weekend. Maybe add a "lunch time" race for the people converting their cars acouple of weeks before.

Shawn.

[WhoDoYouThink]

Oooooh, stir the pot Bruce, stir the pot! 

[BCbud]

Good day!

Too staet out, I had a lot of fun in several races in pro-10 this summer but I would question that it is a successful class. Look at the A main results for the Q&A race. It is like we raced 2 classes at once and there is a 6 lap differance from first to last. That is what got this hole discussion got started.

Pan Car A Main                                                Round# 3, Race# 6

________________________Driver___Car#____Laps____RaceTime____Fast Lap___Behind_
                                                Szirmay, Mick    #2      23     5:03.574     12.237           
                                                  Jones, Daryl    #1      23     5:06.643     12.408      3.069
                                                Younger, Tom    #3      23     5:10.805     12.365      7.231
                                               Newroth, Nick    #6      22     5:12.119     12.640           
                                                     Cady, Phil    #4      22     5:12.216     12.538      0.097
                                                Johnson, Neil    #8      19     5:13.092     14.223           
                                             Galbraith, John    #9      18     5:04.757     14.194           
                                                Palmer, Vince    #5      18     5:10.056     14.689      5.299
                                                    Myatt, Don    #7      17     5:01.058     14.696           

[roofrider]

With the winter season upon us, I think that we should have a meeting at the pizza place one or two nights before (long before) the next summer season sneaks up on us and we still don't know what to do. This should be done with ample advertising so everyone has the opportunity to be there.
We can all sit in our ivory towers and continue the debate, but if we sit down and make an informed decision that makes the most sense as far as the club is concerned we have a better chance of making the most racers happy. Just a thought

[gotnitro]

________________________Driver___Car#____Laps____RaceTime____Fast Lap___Behind_
                  Jones, Daryl    #6      27     6:08.715     12.830           
                 Sladich, Matt    #5      27     6:09.110     12.703      0.395
                 Fantetti, Rob    #4      26     6:03.043     13.161           
                  Bowker, John    #7      26     6:10.738     13.621      7.695
                 Lester, Danny    #8      25     6:01.550     13.331           
                 White, Warren    #9      24     6:04.411     14.155           
                 Newroth, Nick    #2       7     2:10.646     13.645         
touring stock A main isn't that much different accept the extra 2 guys in pan car

[gotnitro]

Pan Car A Main                                                Round# 4, Race# 4

________________________Driver___Car#____Laps____RaceTime____Fast Lap___Behind_
                 Johnson, Neil    #4      23     5:13.091     12.365           
                 Palmer, Vince    #1      21     5:08.374     12.867           
                 Fantetti, Joe    #6      16     5:18.609     10.655           
                 Newroth, Nick    #3       0        0.000                     
              Blondeau, Andrew    #2       0        0.000                 0.000
                 Fantetti, Rob    #5       0        0.000                 0.000

Look at these stats. 7 guys start 3 finish its no different then nitro. If everyone shows up to race then everyone has someone to race with at their level. Lets face it we all have lives and cant always race or race a second car. Slowing things down is only going to make a snorfest.... Ok Time for RCSHADOW AND ARCHER TO CHIME IN....LOL

[WhoDoYouThink]

Nice Gerry, pick the one race I didn't even start in Pan Car and one of my worst finishes in Touring Car! LOL

I probably don't have to point this out, but I will anyway...
I ran a 19 turn in my Pan Car and was usually within half a second of the "fast boyz" with their fancy 10.5 brushless set ups and wiz bang " turbo boostable" speed controls!
So that begs the question, why weren't they blowing my doors off in Pan Car!

I know I won both the 2010 Pan Car and Touring Car season because I showed up consistently to set up and to race, but that's another thread all by itself! ;-)

[jarrodH]

has anybody thaught that maybe its not the class that has to change? not tryin to insult or call anyone out, but i think it has to be said..

look whos out front on a weekly bassis.. mick, daryl,  blake.. etc.. the guys who have been doin this longer than ive been alive..  maybe its the drivin that makes the differance in the big race split?  i always hear people, me included sometimes, that think its the motor/electronics or watever is the reason their slower. but if you think about it, how many times did you hit the wall? doesnt matter if you have blakes car if you hit the wall twice, youve now lost the advantage of havin the faster car..

the class shouldnt change to fit the drivers, the drivers should change to fit the class..

like or hate it.. its my 2 cents..

[dajracer]

I haven't waded into this debate on purpose. As most of you know, I won't be racing at all next summer so I have just been sitting on the sidelines. I can't wait any longer!
The problem is largely caused by car count, we all agree on that but as I read these posts the big thing I see is that the car count will only go down next year unless something is done. What is being done here is a suggestion by one of the club "dictators"(as we are sometimes referred to) to try to better racing within the club and hopefully promote this class and bring us into the 21st century, aligning us with the rest of the R/C world. Yes, I love driving fast and as you all know I dislike Nitro so I get my kicks driving pan cars. I love the speed but I can honestly say that the best days racing are when you are in a tight battle with a fellow driver, whether it be for 1st place or last place. For example, racing in Nanaimo last night was OK, because I won the A-main but it wasn't as much fun as it would have been if I had had to defend my position lap after lap for the win, but being at least 1 lap up on 2nd place isn't what I consider fun. I have had more fun racing my 18R(2 seconds/lap slower than 1/12) when I am in a closer battle for whatever position. You can watch Blake and Craig put on a show for the crowd, sometimes one of them could be a lap or more up on the other but they would rather put on a show for our audiences and have more fun racing each other more closely.   
Shawn has mentioned that the ESC and motor of the day will then take over even more. This could be true but the majority of people in the club are now running the same equipment and I don't think too many would be jumping on the ESC of the week bandwagon. Nick has also stated as to how competitive he was running with old equipment this past summer, I can attest to this because I ran old equipment last year and was just as competitive as anybody.
I guess for my .02, I would much sooner have more even racing and if slowing the class down a bit to achieve this will help then I am completely for it.
I could say more but I might offend even more people so I will stop here.
See you all at racing....

[gotnitro]

12th Stock A Main                                             Round# 3, Race# 3

________________________Driver___Car#____Laps____RaceTime____Fast Lap___Behind_
                   Bell, Blake    #1      38     8:05.790     12.219           
                Roberts, Craig    #3      37     8:00.634     12.224           
              Armstrong, Glenn    #2      37     8:05.281     12.500      4.647
                Bernard, Gerry    #5      36     8:00.191     12.257           
                  Heap, Jarrod    #7      36     8:09.608     12.372      9.417
                 Szirmay, Mick    #4      35     8:08.133     12.415           
                 Newroth, Nick    #6      33     8:14.924     12.801           
             Leronowich, Tonia    #8      30     8:02.564     14.098           

here is a good example of nearly everyone using the same equipment and running the same hardware in 2010 winter indoor and there are still going to be the top 4 that may be 2 to 4 laps out from the botoom 3 or 4 racers.

[Gorden]

12th Stock A Main                                             Round# 3, Race# 3

________________________Driver___Car#____Laps____RaceTime____Fast Lap___Behind_
                   Bell, Blake    #1      38     8:05.790     12.219           
                Roberts, Craig    #3      37     8:00.634     12.224           
              Armstrong, Glenn    #2      37     8:05.281     12.500      4.647
                Bernard, Gerry    #5      36     8:00.191     12.257           
                  Heap, Jarrod    #7      36     8:09.608     12.372      9.417
                 Szirmay, Mick    #4      35     8:08.133     12.415           
                 Newroth, Nick    #6      33     8:14.924     12.801           
             Leronowich, Tonia    #8      30     8:02.564     14.098           

here is a good example of nearly everyone using the same equipment and running the same hardware in 2010 winter indoor and there are still going to be the top 4 that may be 2 to 4 laps out from the botoom 3 or 4 racers.

I agree with Gerry. No matter what the motor/battery/ESC combo even if you gave everyone the same car, The top guys are still going to be a few lap's ahead of the bottom guys.

[WhoDoYouThink]

"I agree with Gerry. No matter what the motor/battery/ESC combo even if you gave everyone the same car, The top guys are still going to be a few lap's ahead of the bottom guys."

Well I think that is a given Gorden.

 So, what have we accomplished in this 6 page thread then, other than to state the obvious? The fast guys, the guys who DON'T hit anything or anyone or need corner marshalling(the two KEY ingredients in this whole deal!) are always going to be faster, now matter what class of car we're talking about.
Slowing down the Pan Car class  to a crawl will still have the fast guys lapping the slow(er) guys multiple times per race!
So why on Earth would we want to make the class any slower for the guys who don't hit boards or each other? It makes absolutely no sense at all to me!

Todd Bertussi put it so well, "It is what it is!"

I know I can only speak for myself, but as someone who will readily admit that my driving skills have peaked, or more truefully, actually gotten worse over the past couple of years, I know I'm not going to beat the fast guys, not unless they have problems,  but I still come out to have fun!

Once the fun stops, so will I!

[BCbud]

Bottom line is since the begining of the 09 season where there was A, B and C mains to last season where we never had a C main. If this trend continues, we will not have enough drivers to run the class. This decrees in drivers has led to the large gap in driver skill level and has made it no fun for me. So how do we bring more drivers to the class, leave it the same or try to make it more inviting for new drivers to race this class??

[Arch]

 

[Falcon]

Were going to ruin this very soon just by arguing this mood point. The fact is that the faster driver are going to get more laps than the slower guys. We must not forget why we come out and do this. Because we have a lot of fun with the driving and being around are friends. We need the exec to just make a decision and do it now please. We can't make everyone happy. There's always going to one person say OK IM NOT COMING ANYMORE.

[BCbud]

I apolojize if my posts seamed like I was arguing, that was not the case or my intention. It was just my opinion as what I see happenig to a class that I would like to see stay in some form or another. Lets make it work.

[cyrrus]

umm,  all the discusions make pretty much clear to each one the try to portray what they are trying to say.   I myself would like to see it go wgt with an irocc style thown in.   Really,  I would like to see go to Single cell.  Not just because my car is design to run single cell.  but rather,  Since most of us run indoors have the cells already.   and it an easy switch with out having to by a pack for just WGT( or what ever you want to call it. )  let the guy run what tire work best for them and also run the 10.5   heck and allow turbo too.since most already have them from running pro 10. body style what ever i'm on the fence and can go either way.

the other thing that way mentioned why not go to the pizza joint and have a good discussion on what we all think,  then the exc can take it all in and make a worth while conclusion to what they think it is best for the club.  They been around allot longer then I and I have total trussed in what they choose. 

Personally I like the option of running 2 class but I do miss the days a few years ago before we brought in 19t touring and pan cars.  we had just about every one running stock TC and the fast guys were in the A and the really slow guys were in the D or E,  when you made the A you made the A ,  and making your way through the Ranks was fun and you were alway running again people of your caliber and one if you bump you got a new challange that weekend.
it was fun and it was great.    As someone  mentioned previously and I totally agree I rather have a close race with someone in the D and having fun,  the running away with the lead.    Okay i'm tired and just rambling on and on. lol

[Blake]

Great posts all.  This discussion has been constructive which is unusual for a web forum.  If this was on RCTech it would have turned into a flame war weeks ago.  Everyone has stated their opinions honestly and without slamming someone else.

1) Andrew, your last post is the best post you've ever made.  So true... I miss the days of battling in Stock. That's why I like indoor so much; one class.  Everyone watches the B-Main to see who gets to advance to the big race.  It is a real feat to make it there.  Summer racing used to have that level of competition a couple of years ago.

2) Please let's never use Todd Bertuzzi's style of problem solving!

3) Excellent post from Daryl.  It summarizes the thread very well.

4) I am currently on the ferry heading home from a road trip I did down to Washington state this weekend.  I attended a race at Timezone 2 Raceway down there.  The biggest class was WGT with 35 entries.  The spec was 1s with 10.5 motors.  Although it is a carpet track, the dimensions were huge:  100 feet by 55 feet.  The fast WGT cars were turning 10.3s laps while the fast TC Stock 17.5 rubber cars were in the 11.7s range.  I ran my GenX10 in the WGT class and I had a TON of fun with it.  The speed was quick enough to require some driving talent but not ballistically, parts-breaking fast.  The 1s setup worked very well with no overheating issues on the motor, ESC, or the solder joints.  The handling of the car felt somewhere between a TC sled and a nimble 12th scale.


WGT has been gathering steam for a couple of years and it's pretty much a legitimate class now.  This certainly doesn't mean that we are expected to switch to it, but now there is a well defined template/spec and, most importantly, a following.  Really, the only variable is the motor (10.5 or 13.5).  IROCC will make a decision on Summer 2010 well in advance of the sun returning.  In the meantime, feel free to do your research and continue to share your opinions, concerns, worries, excitement, etc....


Blake

[Shawn68z]

Shawn has mentioned that the ESC and motor of the day will then take over even more. This could be true but the majority of people in the club are now running the same equipment and I don't think too many would be jumping on the ESC of the week bandwagon. Nick has also stated as to how competitive he was running with old equipment this past summer, I can attest to this because I ran old equipment last year and was just as competitive as anybody.
I guess for my .02, I would much sooner have more even racing and if slowing the class down a bit to achieve this will help then I am completely for it.
I could say more but I might offend even more people so I will stop here.
See you all at racing....

Nick and yourself are competative in the class because of clean driving, and properly setup cars.

The 10.5/19T in my opinion has been an excellent choice for powering these cars.  With lower power, even the slightest advantage in power will make a bigger difference, because the car will be able to hook up the power. When using high power motors, the wheel spin increases, negating some of the extra power. With regards to the 19T, not as much power, but less wheel spin out of the corners, worked out rather well on a looser track.

I think its time for a poll (purposely avoiding the word "vote")


1) Keep it the way it is (Pro10, 10.5/2S, 19T)
2) 10.5/1S/ESC Boost
3) 10.5/1S/ESC Non Boost
4) 13.5/2S/ESC Boost
5) 13.5/2S/ESC Non Boost
6) 17.5/2S/ESC
7) 17.5/2S/ Non Boost


Shawn.

I

[roofrider]

Shawn May have a good idea, but the one thing I feel strongly about is the spec tires. Whatever we do I think the one thing we should do is run spec tires. I think this point alone will do more to even things out than any other.  As one on a small budget there was no way I could keep all the sets of rubber required to do well on any given day, if you take tires out of the mix I believe the rest would soon follow.

[dajracer]

Shawn has forgotten 2 alternatives
8-13.5/1S/ESC-no boost
9-13.5/1S/ESC- boost

[Tom]

The handling of the car felt somewhere between a TC sled and a nimble 12th scale.

What are they like on asphalt?

[DekelzMan]

A couple of recent statements I don't understand. It sounds like some people think that Pro10 diluted the TC Stock class somehow. Except for me, who gave up TC stock in exchange for running Pro10? As far as I know, no one. Every one that runs Pro10 runs TC. Or are people saying that Pro10 has diminished our overall numbers somehow? Please explain.

Hobbys need to be kept in perspective. People grow more and less enthusiastic depending on what else is going on in their lives. People prioritize, and rightly so, by showing up when they can, at the frequency that they can. Some can be deemed lucky and praised for being able to make it out week in and week out but the plain reality is this is just a past time for most of us and trying to blame diminishing overall numbers on any given element within IROCC is highly questionable at best.

Statement 2, a spec tire will make the overall racing cheaper. Not sure how that works. Please explain.

There's really a couple of debates going on here. The first is how do we even up the playing field, the second is how do we get the numbers up so that there will always be someone for everyone to race. Evening up the playing field could encourage more people to run the class thus killing the two problems in one shot.

If the sole purpose of this change is to even up the playing field, the easiest way to do this is to simply slow the cars down with either a motor change, a battery change, or both. By going to a less aerodynamic spec body, and spec tire format like World GT will only make the cars harder to drive thus the higher skilled drivers will still prevail. If we keep the cars with the higher downforce bodies but slow them down it'll make it easier for the less skilled drivers to compete.

If we want to align ourselves with other clubs that run WorldGT then thats another matter, so lets not confuse the issues here.

[Blake]

The handling of the car felt somewhere between a TC sled and a nimble 12th scale.

What are they like on asphalt?

Yeah, excellent question, and one I had hoped to answer over the last three weeks in September.  Unfortunately the rain thwarted that plan so I really have no idea.

Blake

[Falcon]

We need to get on with this. Blake can we just make the decision and make this topic go away. We've haggled enough.

[RC51]

What are they like on asphalt?

Hey, T.

You can check out the ROAR Paved Nats this year to see how the spec cars handle on asphalt. Looked dialed from the videos. Same thing in London, ON I understand and they ran on seal-coated asphalt. I don't have any specific details. Maybe a call or email through to CRC would put the question to rest.

P.

[Gorden]

lets see how the WGT class works this weekend at the Chill

Blake \ Craig are you guys going to race WGT?

Gorden

[Shawn68z]

Shawn May have a good idea, but the one thing I feel strongly about is the spec tires. Whatever we do I think the one thing we should do is run spec tires. I think this point alone will do more to even things out than any other.  As one on a small budget there was no way I could keep all the sets of rubber required to do well on any given day, if you take tires out of the mix I believe the rest would soon follow.

Running WGT compounds wont save you a cent in tire costs.   If you want to save money then buy donuts and mount them yourself. I have been doing this for 2 years now, and I get a pair of donuts for $11, sometimes less.  Works out to 1/2 of what you would normally pay.  As for combo's, I have lots of useless foams from experimentation. I only run two different combos now Pink/Purple(lasts 4-5 weekends), and White/Pink(lasts 2-3 weekends). 

 My problem with running WGT is ever since the begining of this class, I have not been able to find a steady supplier of WGT wheels. Even stormer only has 1 set of BMI's in, and all other WGT wheels are currently on order.  I have tried 3 other online hobby shops, and no one has any stock of WGT wheels.  By allowing people to run any wheel they want, it allows more sources for the wheels, and a better chance of securing some foam.

Shawn.

[RC51]

I ran it there last year as a demo with another guy and will do it again this year in the race. I ran a 10.5 1s and the other fellow ran a 13.5 1s. Other than the obvious difference in power, the cars handled beautifully and I stopped using traction compound after the second heat. Virtually no tire wear as well.

Glenn ran WGT tires a couple of times this year, too. Arguably different since he ran 2s 10.5 GTP, but the tires hooked up regardless.

This is apples and oranges for our situation, though, and we're making a big deal out of it. High-traction carpet with 13.5 1s (Chill rules this year) is a far cry from 10.5 1s on asphalt with less grip. Using the chill as a basis for comparison is folly. However, watching Ryan's car in WGT form with 2s, it was obviously capable of connecting with the track! The thing was hugely fast and the tires were gripping.

My $0.02 based on my experience driving WGT. 

P.

[Tom]

We need to get on with this. Blake can we just make the decision and make this topic go away. We've haggled enough.

Why must a decision for racing 6 months from now be made today?  Three months is a LONNNNG time in this hobby nowadays.

Mick made some good points a few posts back.  Let's not confuse too many issues.

I, for one, feel that slowing cars down will not significantly change the finishing order.  The people who currently turn 3 of 30 laps slower will end up turning 2 of 20 laps slower, etc.  So, slowing the cars down won't make anyone more competitive.

However, slowing cars down DOES tend to reduce running costs.  Tires tend to last longer, as do bodies, and whatever other parts people manage to break on their cars.  So, it is possible that a slower field will tend to be more even due to nobody having to be cheap due to high operating costs.

But, if you want to run slow, isn't that what we have taxi cabs for?  If you want to look for an expensive class, that's one right there.

What makes for great racing is lots of racers at a similar skill level.  So, if we're going to have lots of skill levels in a class, we're going to want to have lots of racers in that class.

It can be a problem if there are too many classes to choose from, as the inevitable result is a dilution of entries in all the classes.  You can also experience racers who see their car isn't being run, so they choose to not race, hoping that by holding out, a new class will be created for them to join.  We've learned these lessons in the past the hard way, and have found success in offering a limited selection of classes, and telling racers to get the kinds of cars we run rather than running their cars.

Mick's question is valid.  Are we in the process of learning this lesson again?

Or, are we way off target?  Might it be the racing schedule that is causing the low turnouts?

And, as Mick indicated, just what is it we're trying to discuss?

[Jtg.73]

Wow. This is giving me a headache.  This is racing.  Slower just doesn't seem to make sense.

[jarrodH]

well i almost posted this yesturday but chosse againt it.. but..

mick, it has diluted the tc class a little bit. look at the A main results that gery posted some # back.. the usual tc A main is entirely missing from a couple years back(i noticed the change as soon as pro10 started, there is no longer a craig, blake, darryl, nick N and you mick runnin tc, and tom is usually not runnin tc when hes come out.. id say 95% of the usuall A main has moved to pan. although danny has improved alot, when danny can win or come second in the tc A main what does that tell ya.. how many top drivers are missing?

and the point that was made about the spec tire bein cheaper, no per set isnt cheaper, but it cuts down on people having 4 sets of foams in 4 different compunds to suit the different track temps.. it makes it easier for the guys that will comprimize and choose a compound that isnt ideal, but will get the job done on a wide variety of days, rather than a guy that has 4 compunds to choose from to dial the car in..

if you want to get people to run the class then just cut the costs down.. spec tire, for above reason, 1s lipo/4 cell nimh..and 10.5/19turn.. as everyon in the club has a one 1s lipo or more from 12th scale, a brushless esc from their tc and/or 1/12 and most have a 19turn motor from before the BL switch over, or u can buy a 10.5 for 60$.. but changin thw battery rules wont save people much, only about +- 15$ a battery? the only saving is just in consumables, tires/parts/bodies.

and i believe another reason for the low numbers is just intimidation factor, the current cars are faster than a nitro car, break like a 12thscale and the class has most of the top racers in the club..

[DekelzMan]

Really Jarrod?

Blake didn't run one Pro10 heat nor did Craig, and both ran TC, as did Daryl and Nick, ALL YEAR. There was NO dilution whatsoever except for me but I have not run TC for three years...if Craig and Blake (or anyone for that matter) had to choose one or the other class due to budgetary reasons, that's when you could possibly see dilution but for three years now it has not had that affect at all..

Your point is good though regarding tires. I did have tires that I didn't use all year because there was never a scenario where they would work so if you only had one compound then at least you'd know that all you bought you would have to make work.

As far as intimidation factor and parts breakage, I think TC's break far far more often, and have way more parts and way more expensive parts....Please don't make me say what I want to say right now....LOL

[gotnitro]

I second that Mick....

[RC51]

Please don't make me say what I want to say right now....LOL

Like why are we racing TC anyway?

I think dilution is a convergence of factors, not just one and the exec have a handle on it. I seem to recall some of the similar logic being applied to trying 19T, then Pro10, then LiPo and brushless - many diseases, but the same cures proposed. Look at the standard specs for the various classes and I'll bet you see pan cars being relatively stable compared to TC over time. Less change at this juncture (until something that reduces overall cost comes along) = less continuous sunken cost and more legacy involvement. In my mind this isn't about finishing order, it's about what class are we running and what are the rules?

The questions still remain: are we going to switch to WGT and if so, what are the specs that make it easy for others to join, to predict what we will be doing, and to keep costs down while having fun?

Phil

[Shawn68z]

and the point that was made about the spec tire bein cheaper, no per set isnt cheaper, but it cuts down on people having 4 sets of foams in 4 different compunds to suit the different track temps.. it makes it easier for the guys that will comprimize and choose a compound that isnt ideal, but will get the job done on a wide variety of days, rather than a guy that has 4 compunds to choose from to dial the car in..

and i believe another reason for the low numbers is just intimidation factor, the current cars are faster than a nitro car, break like a 12thscale and the class has most of the top racers in the club..

I know I should probably just drop this, but when you have 4 sets of wheels, you only run each set 1/4 of the time, so they will last 4 times longer then if you only have 1 set of wheels.  So you will not save money on wheels/tires, unless we could talk to CRC and get a group purchase for a fairly large quantity. If you wanted one set that works all the time Pink/Purple, its been the norm since the beginning.

As for your second point, i think you are dead right.  Being a replacement for 19T TC, it was always going to be fast. Is it a bad thing that the cars are to fast for novice drivers? I cant drive 1/12 open modified, so should the rules change to allow me to race in that class, or should I find a class that suits my abilities?

And for breaking of parts, last year (5 races only mind you), i only broke 1 part on my Pro10 car, which cost $12.   In 1/12 i did not break a  part in an entire season of racing.    TC there is alot more parts to break (drive cups! Arrg), and alot more wear and tear.

 If you want a slow(er) class that everyone can run, that is not expensive, and has support in Vancouver, we should have a Mini-Class. or a 18R class. I know I would buy  Cameron a AE 18R in a heart beat. THey are cheap, robust, and inexpensive to run.  Would be a good starter class for anyone interested.

Shawn.

[jarrodH]

I know I should probably just drop this, but when you have 4 sets of wheels, you only run each set 1/4 of the time, so they will last 4 times longer then if you only have 1 set of wheels.  So you will not save money on wheels/tires, unless we could talk to CRC and get a group purchase for a fairly large quantity. If you wanted one set that works all the time Pink/Purple, its been the norm since the beginning.

Shawn.

but as mick said earlier hes got a set, or 2 that hes never used becasue the perfect opportunity never came up.. unless ur conciously rotating thru all your sets.. you will use certain compounds more than others.. so you have tires siting idle for weeks while other more "common" compounds are used up and replaced...

as i dont run this class, currently, im out..

all i gotta say is this, either keep it the way it is and the guys that enjoy it can run, or go with the wgt rules, and be on the same plane as everyone elses club so other people can come play with us and not have to change everything..

[Shawn68z]

The big question still remains.

 By switching rules are there going to be anymore drivers each week?   Are there going to be any LESS drivers each week?


Shawn.

[Tonia]

Im buying a wgt car on fri and am excited to see where you guys get to with this.A couple of guys in the Nanaimo club are also very interested.

 Shawn hit the nail on the head if you want more people interested entry level racing the initial set up has to be cheeper than $1000. Also Daryl comented on closer racing being more fun,I coudnt agree more. Speaking from experience we have had over 60 new racers in the 3 years we have been operating. All of them started with the $200 amazingly indistructable team ass 18r. We (Tonia, Jamie,Matt, and many others)owe our expedited racing abillities to this little car they handle well enough to drive agresivly on asphaut ,our first season was on the parking lot in front of the shop.They dont break and have a non ajustable nuetral set up,very important for new guys.The parts are super cheap an anual parts budget would be less than $20.It is also a great second class for anyone.Anyway this was sounding like you want more racers and weather its 18r or tamiya mini I think this would promote more numbers than the 10.5 /1s , 13.5/ 2s or 17.5... argument.


just what I thaught
Matt @NRC support your LHS

[BCbud]

As one of the drivers that is always 5 or so laps behind and always having to pull over when the faster guys go by I would love to see the class slow down, run WGT per say, I would be able to concentrate more on my driving. as it stands right now I am ready to shelve the thing for the rest of the year. it just isn't any fun, and lets face it that's why I am there to begin with.Just like Phil that's my 2 cents worth
Don

Don I agree with you. But we will still be a few laps behind like in 1/12 scale last year there would be about 4/5  laps from the A-main to the C/D Mains the fast guys will always be fast no mater what is used for power.
Its the driving skills that keep them fast not the motor/battery.

Do you think a 1/12th scall 8 minute race on carpet and a 1/10th scale 5 minute race on pavment is a good comparison?

But the racing would be closer for drivers that normally race in the same heats

I would like to see a Spec class here but maybe with the 17.5 and 2 cell then there is no need for the boosters 

LRP is now making a ESC witha  low voltage boster internal. How long do you think it will take others to do the same?

http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_info.php/cPath/1_221_1357/products_id/183099/n/LRP-SXX-Version-2-Competition-Brushless-ESC

Gorden

[BCbud]

That post did not work like I thought but I hope you can see where I made my comments.

[Trewsert]

hy. yes I agree to race with WGT in club 10.5 it's good at least for me 👍.Learning to go 🚄 like Bullet but getting there slowly but shurely. thank you all for help u r giving me on mainly training days it is Very highly appreciate .I have A Zlot to learn but most I have i fun. 😂😂😀😂😀😂🍺. Mike