The Great Pro10/World GT Debate!

[dajracer]

I haven't waded into this debate on purpose. As most of you know, I won't be racing at all next summer so I have just been sitting on the sidelines. I can't wait any longer!
The problem is largely caused by car count, we all agree on that but as I read these posts the big thing I see is that the car count will only go down next year unless something is done. What is being done here is a suggestion by one of the club "dictators"(as we are sometimes referred to) to try to better racing within the club and hopefully promote this class and bring us into the 21st century, aligning us with the rest of the R/C world. Yes, I love driving fast and as you all know I dislike Nitro so I get my kicks driving pan cars. I love the speed but I can honestly say that the best days racing are when you are in a tight battle with a fellow driver, whether it be for 1st place or last place. For example, racing in Nanaimo last night was OK, because I won the A-main but it wasn't as much fun as it would have been if I had had to defend my position lap after lap for the win, but being at least 1 lap up on 2nd place isn't what I consider fun. I have had more fun racing my 18R(2 seconds/lap slower than 1/12) when I am in a closer battle for whatever position. You can watch Blake and Craig put on a show for the crowd, sometimes one of them could be a lap or more up on the other but they would rather put on a show for our audiences and have more fun racing each other more closely.   
Shawn has mentioned that the ESC and motor of the day will then take over even more. This could be true but the majority of people in the club are now running the same equipment and I don't think too many would be jumping on the ESC of the week bandwagon. Nick has also stated as to how competitive he was running with old equipment this past summer, I can attest to this because I ran old equipment last year and was just as competitive as anybody.
I guess for my .02, I would much sooner have more even racing and if slowing the class down a bit to achieve this will help then I am completely for it.
I could say more but I might offend even more people so I will stop here.
See you all at racing....

[gotnitro]

12th Stock A Main                                             Round# 3, Race# 3

________________________Driver___Car#____Laps____RaceTime____Fast Lap___Behind_
                   Bell, Blake    #1      38     8:05.790     12.219           
                Roberts, Craig    #3      37     8:00.634     12.224           
              Armstrong, Glenn    #2      37     8:05.281     12.500      4.647
                Bernard, Gerry    #5      36     8:00.191     12.257           
                  Heap, Jarrod    #7      36     8:09.608     12.372      9.417
                 Szirmay, Mick    #4      35     8:08.133     12.415           
                 Newroth, Nick    #6      33     8:14.924     12.801           
             Leronowich, Tonia    #8      30     8:02.564     14.098           

here is a good example of nearly everyone using the same equipment and running the same hardware in 2010 winter indoor and there are still going to be the top 4 that may be 2 to 4 laps out from the botoom 3 or 4 racers.

[Gorden]

12th Stock A Main                                             Round# 3, Race# 3

________________________Driver___Car#____Laps____RaceTime____Fast Lap___Behind_
                   Bell, Blake    #1      38     8:05.790     12.219           
                Roberts, Craig    #3      37     8:00.634     12.224           
              Armstrong, Glenn    #2      37     8:05.281     12.500      4.647
                Bernard, Gerry    #5      36     8:00.191     12.257           
                  Heap, Jarrod    #7      36     8:09.608     12.372      9.417
                 Szirmay, Mick    #4      35     8:08.133     12.415           
                 Newroth, Nick    #6      33     8:14.924     12.801           
             Leronowich, Tonia    #8      30     8:02.564     14.098           

here is a good example of nearly everyone using the same equipment and running the same hardware in 2010 winter indoor and there are still going to be the top 4 that may be 2 to 4 laps out from the botoom 3 or 4 racers.

I agree with Gerry. No matter what the motor/battery/ESC combo even if you gave everyone the same car, The top guys are still going to be a few lap's ahead of the bottom guys.

[WhoDoYouThink]

"I agree with Gerry. No matter what the motor/battery/ESC combo even if you gave everyone the same car, The top guys are still going to be a few lap's ahead of the bottom guys."

Well I think that is a given Gorden.

So, what have we accomplished in this 6 page thread then, other than to state the obvious? The fast guys, the guys who DON'T hit anything or anyone or need corner marshalling(the two KEY ingredients in this whole deal!) are always going to be faster, now matter what class of car we're talking about.
Slowing down the Pan Car class  to a crawl will still have the fast guys lapping the slow(er) guys multiple times per race!
So why on Earth would we want to make the class any slower for the guys who don't hit boards or each other? It makes absolutely no sense at all to me!

Todd Bertussi put it so well, "It is what it is!"

I know I can only speak for myself, but as someone who will readily admit that my driving skills have peaked, or more truefully, actually gotten worse over the past couple of years, I know I'm not going to beat the fast guys, not unless they have problems,  but I still come out to have fun!

Once the fun stops, so will I!

[BCbud]

Bottom line is since the begining of the 09 season where there was A, B and C mains to last season where we never had a C main. If this trend continues, we will not have enough drivers to run the class. This decrees in drivers has led to the large gap in driver skill level and has made it no fun for me. So how do we bring more drivers to the class, leave it the same or try to make it more inviting for new drivers to race this class??

[Arch]

 

[Falcon]

Were going to ruin this very soon just by arguing this mood point. The fact is that the faster driver are going to get more laps than the slower guys. We must not forget why we come out and do this. Because we have a lot of fun with the driving and being around are friends. We need the exec to just make a decision and do it now please. We can't make everyone happy. There's always going to one person say OK IM NOT COMING ANYMORE.

[BCbud]

I apolojize if my posts seamed like I was arguing, that was not the case or my intention. It was just my opinion as what I see happenig to a class that I would like to see stay in some form or another. Lets make it work.

[cyrrus]

umm,  all the discusions make pretty much clear to each one the try to portray what they are trying to say.   I myself would like to see it go wgt with an irocc style thown in.   Really,  I would like to see go to Single cell.  Not just because my car is design to run single cell.  but rather,  Since most of us run indoors have the cells already.   and it an easy switch with out having to by a pack for just WGT( or what ever you want to call it. )  let the guy run what tire work best for them and also run the 10.5   heck and allow turbo too.since most already have them from running pro 10. body style what ever i'm on the fence and can go either way.

the other thing that way mentioned why not go to the pizza joint and have a good discussion on what we all think,  then the exc can take it all in and make a worth while conclusion to what they think it is best for the club.  They been around allot longer then I and I have total trussed in what they choose. 

Personally I like the option of running 2 class but I do miss the days a few years ago before we brought in 19t touring and pan cars.  we had just about every one running stock TC and the fast guys were in the A and the really slow guys were in the D or E,  when you made the A you made the A ,  and making your way through the Ranks was fun and you were alway running again people of your caliber and one if you bump you got a new challange that weekend.
it was fun and it was great.    As someone  mentioned previously and I totally agree I rather have a close race with someone in the D and having fun,  the running away with the lead.    Okay i'm tired and just rambling on and on. lol

[Blake]

Great posts all.  This discussion has been constructive which is unusual for a web forum.  If this was on RCTech it would have turned into a flame war weeks ago.  Everyone has stated their opinions honestly and without slamming someone else.

1) Andrew, your last post is the best post you've ever made.  So true... I miss the days of battling in Stock. That's why I like indoor so much; one class.  Everyone watches the B-Main to see who gets to advance to the big race.  It is a real feat to make it there.  Summer racing used to have that level of competition a couple of years ago.

2) Please let's never use Todd Bertuzzi's style of problem solving!

3) Excellent post from Daryl.  It summarizes the thread very well.

4) I am currently on the ferry heading home from a road trip I did down to Washington state this weekend.  I attended a race at Timezone 2 Raceway down there.  The biggest class was WGT with 35 entries.  The spec was 1s with 10.5 motors.  Although it is a carpet track, the dimensions were huge:  100 feet by 55 feet.  The fast WGT cars were turning 10.3s laps while the fast TC Stock 17.5 rubber cars were in the 11.7s range.  I ran my GenX10 in the WGT class and I had a TON of fun with it.  The speed was quick enough to require some driving talent but not ballistically, parts-breaking fast.  The 1s setup worked very well with no overheating issues on the motor, ESC, or the solder joints.  The handling of the car felt somewhere between a TC sled and a nimble 12th scale.


WGT has been gathering steam for a couple of years and it's pretty much a legitimate class now.  This certainly doesn't mean that we are expected to switch to it, but now there is a well defined template/spec and, most importantly, a following.  Really, the only variable is the motor (10.5 or 13.5).  IROCC will make a decision on Summer 2010 well in advance of the sun returning.  In the meantime, feel free to do your research and continue to share your opinions, concerns, worries, excitement, etc....


Blake

[Shawn68z]

Shawn has mentioned that the ESC and motor of the day will then take over even more. This could be true but the majority of people in the club are now running the same equipment and I don't think too many would be jumping on the ESC of the week bandwagon. Nick has also stated as to how competitive he was running with old equipment this past summer, I can attest to this because I ran old equipment last year and was just as competitive as anybody.
I guess for my .02, I would much sooner have more even racing and if slowing the class down a bit to achieve this will help then I am completely for it.
I could say more but I might offend even more people so I will stop here.
See you all at racing....

Nick and yourself are competative in the class because of clean driving, and properly setup cars.

The 10.5/19T in my opinion has been an excellent choice for powering these cars.  With lower power, even the slightest advantage in power will make a bigger difference, because the car will be able to hook up the power. When using high power motors, the wheel spin increases, negating some of the extra power. With regards to the 19T, not as much power, but less wheel spin out of the corners, worked out rather well on a looser track.

I think its time for a poll (purposely avoiding the word "vote")


1) Keep it the way it is (Pro10, 10.5/2S, 19T)
2) 10.5/1S/ESC Boost
3) 10.5/1S/ESC Non Boost
4) 13.5/2S/ESC Boost
5) 13.5/2S/ESC Non Boost
6) 17.5/2S/ESC
7) 17.5/2S/ Non Boost


Shawn.

I

[roofrider]

Shawn May have a good idea, but the one thing I feel strongly about is the spec tires. Whatever we do I think the one thing we should do is run spec tires. I think this point alone will do more to even things out than any other.  As one on a small budget there was no way I could keep all the sets of rubber required to do well on any given day, if you take tires out of the mix I believe the rest would soon follow.

[dajracer]

Shawn has forgotten 2 alternatives
8-13.5/1S/ESC-no boost
9-13.5/1S/ESC- boost

[Tom]

The handling of the car felt somewhere between a TC sled and a nimble 12th scale.

What are they like on asphalt?

[DekelzMan]

A couple of recent statements I don't understand. It sounds like some people think that Pro10 diluted the TC Stock class somehow. Except for me, who gave up TC stock in exchange for running Pro10? As far as I know, no one. Every one that runs Pro10 runs TC. Or are people saying that Pro10 has diminished our overall numbers somehow? Please explain.

Hobbys need to be kept in perspective. People grow more and less enthusiastic depending on what else is going on in their lives. People prioritize, and rightly so, by showing up when they can, at the frequency that they can. Some can be deemed lucky and praised for being able to make it out week in and week out but the plain reality is this is just a past time for most of us and trying to blame diminishing overall numbers on any given element within IROCC is highly questionable at best.

Statement 2, a spec tire will make the overall racing cheaper. Not sure how that works. Please explain.

There's really a couple of debates going on here. The first is how do we even up the playing field, the second is how do we get the numbers up so that there will always be someone for everyone to race. Evening up the playing field could encourage more people to run the class thus killing the two problems in one shot.

If the sole purpose of this change is to even up the playing field, the easiest way to do this is to simply slow the cars down with either a motor change, a battery change, or both. By going to a less aerodynamic spec body, and spec tire format like World GT will only make the cars harder to drive thus the higher skilled drivers will still prevail. If we keep the cars with the higher downforce bodies but slow them down it'll make it easier for the less skilled drivers to compete.

If we want to align ourselves with other clubs that run WorldGT then thats another matter, so lets not confuse the issues here.