Bad Battery Buzz

[haddow]

I applaud SMC for honouring their policy and replacing these cells. However I am with Kurk and don't see how replacing these will really help the racer much. Even if the newer cells were 100% better that would make them good for about 10 runs instead of 5.

I myself will be retiring from electric touring until a proven reliable cell comes out or LiPos are legalized. As you know I have done lots of LiPo testing for a company and believe me, we would not be having this problem. In fact after over 50 cycles the LiPos I have on hand are as good as the freshest, newest IB 4200s. Blake and I both used a SINGLE battery to get through a entire trophy race weekend running Modified Touring. NO NiMH can make that claim. Your batteries would still be nuclear hot before the next round, preventing you from re-charging in time. LiPos come of the charger cool and off the track cool allowing you to recharge them instantly. You also don't have to do discharge maintenance so that even further lowers the time you need to get ready every round. Like I say 1 single battery got me through the whole weekend with time to spare every round. You could glue the battery in your car!!

If you want a list of other advantages that LiPos have come and see me at the track.

Also for the record, a motion was denied to allow LiPos in competition this year in IROCC. Maybe next year??!!, lobby your local IROCC exec member

[Grinder]

LiPo or LiMn are club friendly.  There is no reason you couldn't run the batteries for two seasons.  LiPos have at least 100 cycles of near first cycle voltages.  Thats a whole season of racing with one battery and being just as competative voltage wise as you were at the begining of the season.  Who wouldn't rather buy a single LiPo than four NiMh packs.  Unfortunately the main thing that has been holding us back is that they aren't ROAR approved.  Personally I'd rather ignore ROAR and be able to race for a whole season worry free.  Even last year I bought a battery pack for the Speed Weekend just to have a good pack since the NiMH were already to drop off significantly before the middle of the season!

On that note is anyone gonna have batteries to even run at Speed Weekend or will we need to run Frankenstien Packs from 12th scale, etc?

[Blake]

I certainly hope that the cells being sold are good for at least a single season of racing.  Thats a total of about 30 cycles which is extremely low for this type of battery chemistry (which is typically 500 cycles).  That is a sad fact of competitive racing where racers need to buy batteries at least twice a year now.  Having cells that perform for two three or four cycles is not acceptable - they may as well not be rechargable.

It is sad, but it is true.  We've been seeing less and less of a cycle life ever since the hobby moved to NiMH.

I'm not interested in replacing single cells.  I've had three cells go bad since last week which means I have gone from three working packs of six to none.  I was extremely frustrated running (not racing for sure) the main with a junk battery pack.  I'm not about to waste my time rebuilding "matched" battery packs with unmatched cells just to have to do the same thing the next week when more of the cells continue to fail.

For sure; No one wants to waste all that time.  But you have to understand from the matcher's perspective that their warranty covers individual cells that are dead.  If you can show a dead cell, they will replace it.  Of course they never figured that they'd have to replace cells in the 50% range... but that's how the warranty works so we have to fit to that unfortunately.

If these are four cycle "rechargeable" cells we should have been notified of the uselessness of the cells.  Not a single person in the club would have purchased them.  Who cares if they are 2 volts per cell if they don't last more that a few cycles.

I firmly believe that SMC would not have sold us these batteries had they known just how short-lived they would be.  The owner of SMC knows our club by name, and he knows that we care only about our club racing.

How long are we going to have to wait to get replacements?  If this isn't a bad batch of cells and this is the nature of the beast (to get only a few cycles out of the batteries) is SMC going to send us another batch a few weeks later?

I'm not yet sure what sort of timeline we're looking at for replacements.  It will likely depend on the number of dead cells we can report.

If this is normal and there are hundreds of thousands of these cells all over North America IB is going to fold like a deck of cards.  No one but the top racers would use these cells and they are all sponsored.  IB will either have to recall all the cells or go out of business (which may be the case if they need to recall all of them).

"hundreds of thousands" was just guess on my part.  I really have no idea what sort of numbers are involved in a "batch" of cells.  Either way, there is a very large market segment that wants high performance first, and cycle life second.  IB has had the reputation for best performance but worst cycle life for a couple of years now.  We learned that last year in November when Frank told us that IB cells were good for one run before losing a large percentage of their voltage, and Haddow confirmed this himself back then when running his trials between NiMH vs. LiPo.  So, in this day and age of low cycle life batteries, I doubt IB will go out of business unless someone else can come along with an equally performing battery with a longer cycle life.  Trust me... I would love it if this happened!


Anyway, I'm not trying to defend SMC, or IB, or anyone else for that matter.  I'm just trying to liaise between us and them, and have each side understand the other.  What seems to have happened with this last batch of IB cells is a HUGE shift toward unacceptable cycle life.  This shift has finally put the batteries over the line with respect to cycle life - especially for the club racer.


Blake

[Grinder]

I understand its a tough position for SMC but I want to be made perfectly clear as well.  I'm upset.  I spent a lot of money for something that is broken.  I think I have a right to a working product.  NiMH has a typical cycle life of 500 cycles.  There is nothing to indicate that these are 2, 3 or 4 cycle batteries.  "That's just the way the cells are" isn't acceptable.  As consumers we have certain rights that can be enforced.  We are of course trying to resolve this amicably but I want those who are making the decisions to know what I expect.  I highly doubt I'm the only one who isn't happy having spent so much money on batteries that have failed so quickly.  Five cycles isn't acceptable to almost anyone - even though who seek high performance.  Even Chris wouldn't buy cells for five races.

This isn't a warranty issue where a cell or two in the club has fail - this is a massive amount of failures from a bad batch from the manufacture (not SMC - unfortunately they are stuck in the middle.  However that is the business they are in and they will need to deal with IB.  They should expect the faulty cells to be replaced for them as well).  This is a faulty batch that needs to be recalled.  We have already had exploding cells from this batch.  What do you think would happen in any other comercial application if the cells were exploding?  Not us - it seems to be taken as normal (which it shouldn't be).  The nylon vent on theses cells is a safety device and IB has been pushing those boundries so much that its normal for the cells to vent on the first charge!  Venting is normally a sign of cell failure.  Any other industry would recall (or be forced to recall) the faulty product.  I expect the same.  I'm not trying to be a jerk about it - I'm just standing up for what I think I (and the rest of the club) paid for - working matched batteries.

[Blake]

I don't disagree with you Kurk.  Obviously 500 cycles is going to be tough to get... but it'd sure be nice to get through a season (or at least half a season!).

Since the introduction of NiMH cells many years ago, there has been a slow but sure deterioration in the lifetime of the cells.  Each year a new capacity record is broken, and a new voltage record is broken, and half the cycles are removed from the cell.  The R/C community as a whole just went along with it.  It sucks, but we sort of accepted it and learned to buy new batteries each season (or twice a season).

Now, it seems like we've finally crossed the line between "acceptable" and not-acceptable.  As I said before, had SMC known that this batch was going to cross this line, I believe they would not have sold them to us.  Now that they have however, the best we're probably going to be able to do is have our individual dead cells replaced as per SMC's warranty.


BTW, we're definitely not alone in this.  Here's a couple of interesting threads talking about recent IB cells.  I wish I had read this a couple of months ago:

http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=143531
http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1763&page=44


Blake

[gearhead]

why not switch to gp cells?
4300 is way more than you need for 5 min racing neway

[Tom]

Battery capacity isn't the limiting factor that it was years ago.  I couldn't care less if my batteries had any capacity above 3800 mAh or so, given their other current characteristics.  You just can't use more power out of them with current brushed motors.

People want the newer batteries because they can supply more power, not because they have a higher capacity.

My biggest apprehension about a completely different battery chemistry is the very different charging technique.  However, it seems as though many racers have modern chargers that can handle LiPoly, but old-timers like me can't.

If half-decent batteries are well and truly no longer available, I'd have to start supporting something that is.

Many old-timers to this board may remember a hot topic (since deleted from the archives I believe, since I couldn't find it) not long after it started up when I blasted the reliability of NiMH vs. NiCad.  Unfortunately, it turns out I was more right than I wanted to be.  Gone are the days of charging a 1400 at 12 amps for 6 runs in a day for several seasons, and retiring them due to higher capacity batteries being available, not due to performance issues.

[Shawn68z]

Just to add some more fuel..


Integy VESC Super-GP4300 6 Cells 640s+ 1.27V+

$35 US, On back order until July.

I have 4 packs on order, but it doesnt look like they will be here for speed weekend.

[WhoDoYouThink]

Thanks for the RCTech links Blake.
Wow! Talk about due diligence(or lack there of) coming back to haunt us!
Although as you said, we did have an inkling of what "might" happen from the experiences of Frank and the "semi-pro" racers back east and their results after having raced with the IB4200s.
Longevity and reliability are clearly not the strong point of this/these  particular batch(s) of IB4200s!

If this is the supposed quality level that is deemed "acceptable" by the R/C Industry in general, and the battery manufacturers/matchers that send this stuff out the door in particular, then I soundly reject it. I won't continue throwing good money after bad out the window supporting an industry that is obviously selling sub par products just because they can.
The question on my mind is... is the industry knowingly selling sub par products? IROCC's is obviously not an isolated case.
I wouldn't continue eating at the same restaurant if the food sucked, nor would I continue using the same gasoline in my vehicle if it was proven it rotted seals and plugged injectors, so why would I want to experiment with any more IB4200s?

What other options are open to us?
Heck, IF I could, I'd go back and be perfectly happy running 3300s or even the Sanyo 2400 NiCD! At least you knew what you were getting!

The forum Blake linked to RCTech reads almost word for word with what we're  currently experiencing with some, OK, a lot of these IB4200s!

IE:
- Venting of one or more cells in a 6 cell pack on the very first charge.
- 0.00V in one or two cells in a 6 cell pack after just one or two runs.
- issues with cells exploding while charging!
- cells developing partial internal shorts resulting in punch loss.
- cells that are so accurately matched on high end battery matching equipment under ideal conditions suddenly going out of match after only one or two cycles, even when assembly/charging/discharging/storage instructions set out by the supplier are followed, etc., etc.

If this is what we as a bunch of "Club Racers" are expected to accept as being OK, then I think it's time that we re-evaluate our choices.

Having read our discussion and portions of the discussion on RCTech, and   I'm sure if one was to search, one could easily find dozens of threads around the net discussing this very same battery issue.
This leads me to think that this world wide issue with the IB4200s must have been brought to the attention of the battery manufacturer and the various matchers around the globe some time ago. There's no way that they couldn't have known that these IB4200s weren't up to specification... right? I mean, some of the guys in the "Industry" actually have to race this stuff too! Surely they must agree that a life expectancy of a "computer matched" pack should be more than 2 or 3 , or if you're really lucky, 4 or 5 cycles before either developing internal short circuits or out right open circuits is unacceptable.

I for one look forward to these unfortunate battery issues being made right as quickly as humanly possible.

Regards,
Nick

[RC51]

Hi, All.

Quite frankly, I am surprised there hasn't been collective action in the US in order to protect the interests of the consumer. The burden on matchers must be huge.

Similar to Craig I have experienced massive failure and of the 8 Packs I have, I have been able to salvage three that are not separated by more than 4 minutes of discharge time per cell using the methods suggested in this thread.  This week I have a couple of packs of the East Power 4200s arriving (EP4200). These are the ones that Trinity has just partnered with EP to put on the market (North American Distributor) as a response to this issue. Apparently the team matched packs are ranging in the 1.218-1.222 area and IR is still good at 1.6-1.7, 445-460 sec @ 35A. This lower voltage (for our purposes anyway) I anticipate as negligible, and the punch will still be there via the IR, but most importantly, there is apparently the benefit of longevity ... and ... they are coming in slightly lower in price. Unfortunately no care instructions are yet available but apparently they are managed similar to the IBs.

My final word on this matter is that money talks and walks. It's my hard earned money and your hard earned money and no rationale or words assuage the frustration felt by this. And I spend it where I like and of course, expect value in return. The reasonable expectation of the Intellect value proposition is compromised in this instance since no one knowingly purchased one-run (or four-run as the case may be) wonders. I won't experiment with IBs any more, personally, and seek an alternative. I have been offered some GP4300s and the new 4600s to test but the provider says that the numbers are very soft indeed and perhaps reserved for brushless if LiPo is not sanctioned at a particular event. The longer run time is also extending the discharge curve, so there is an illusion of higher voltage for racing which simply doesn't appear useful in the five min timeframe used for racing. Besides which, they're not endorsed at the 4600 capacity in areas where we race.

So, if anyone is interested, I'll be sure to let you know what my experience is and how the batteries perform, and how they hold up under heavy use. We all love the hobby so much that we seek alternatives for sure, and for me, not racing is not an option, but neither is throwing good money after bad. In our case, I feel bad on two fronts: that everyone has put so much of their hard won money into such a poor cell; and that well-intentioned, unwitting matchers carry this burden as the market reacts. The propaganda mills and industry rags that tout and flout this stuff should feel ashamed.

Phil

[Grinder]

Its also hard to imagine that SMC who matches these cells didn't notice an alarming increase in failed cells in the matching process itself.  This issue with this batch of bad cells has been an issue for more than the last few weeks that we've been struggling with them. Regardless SMC continues to put these cells on the market knowing there is an issue with them (search the Net - there are countless threads on the issues with the IB cells including the dates).  Quality control would appear to be non existant or SMC chooses to ignore it.  So far SMC has been strangely silent and have only offered to replace cells that have already failed leaving us with the same bad cells which continue to fail as the weeks progress.  We paid for matched packs and SMC is failing to provide us with that.  

Will SMC be supplying us with weekly replacements for theses cells?  I'm not interested in building packs weekly and testing cells.  My time is precious and so is my racing.  I'm not interested in more frustration from cells quiting in the middle of a race.

Phil you are right.  Money talks.  I spend at least $500 a year on cells and the club must spend well over $10,000 a year.  If SMC doesn't resolve this in a satisfactory manor I'm happy to spend my money elsewhere.  We've supported them for years and it would seem appropriate for them to provide some sort of customer support in return.

So SMC will you provide us with a suitable alternative cell or refund our money?  Or will you take the easy road out and try to replace only the failed cells while we continue to have failures throught the season from this bad batch of batteries?  Replacing the failed cells will only continue the frustration of the racers in the club as these cells continue to fail.

[RC51]

[SgRddY]

Now What??

btw, nice picture there phil, i guess i should not leave the battery unattended when charging.

[haddow]

Now What??

btw, nice picture there phil, i guess i should not leave the battery unattended when charging.

shouldnt leave any battery unattended.

[Grinder]

Now What??

btw, nice picture there phil, i guess i should not leave the battery unattended when charging.

shouldnt leave any battery unattended.

.... except for Thermo Nuclear batterys - best to leave them unattended - and as far away as possible...