Heat Setup

[Grinder]

As for points...

I think you should get the points where you place in the race of course.  If you start a main and break then you get last place in your heat.  If someone breaks after you he got more laps in so he places just in front of you.  

I guess the problem here is what is considered starting a race.  Is it going to be getting your car physically on the track, passing over the start line or completing a single lap?  I think I would lean towards passing the start line.  If you choose physically on the track you could just put a broken car on there and get your points.  If you do it after one lap someone may smoke into you on the first lap and break your car depriving you of your points.

I think if you get a DNF you should get points in that heat.  If you get a DNS you should get points at the bottom of the rest of the racers (eg after last in the E or D main).  That way you get your points even if you DNS. More likely than not they are going to end up being your throw away points because they will be your lowest score unless you miss too many then it counts as part of your average.  Hey if you want to pay $15 to get points even if you aren't there its only going to help the club out

[haddow]

Hey if you want to pay $15 to get points even if you aren't there its only going to help the club out

Ya can I pay 15 buck for the race I will be away for. I usually finish in the upper B or lower A so 90 points will do thanks.

I dont want some guy named Dog Ball beating my ass in points while I am out of the action.

so you mean i dont even have to own a car to get points just pay 15 bucks

[haddow]

If you get a DNS you should get points at the bottom of the rest of the racers (eg after last in the E or D main). That way you get your points even if you DNS. More likely than not they are going to end up being your throw away points because they will be your lowest score unless you miss too many then it counts as part of your average.

yes but this is a double edged sword. This would mean that and A driver could get a DNS in the main, get last place oevrall and have to qualify in the D or E the next week. If he had just not come to racing then he would be in the A the next week becasue of his median points. Then as you say it would suck for the E drivers to have to run with an A driver.

I think there is no really good solution and that our current heat setup scenario is as good as it gets and paying out points for last place in the main you qualify for, in the case of a main DNS, would solve the problem of the next weeks seed.

[cyrrus]

This is Andrew wife Petra, Andrew as me to take a look at this topic because of my background

From reading all your comments and your explainations, using your point standing seems the most logical. However, your calculation have to be accuate. I was looking at your stats and everyones possible points was different. Everyone ratios should be based off the total number of races that could have been attended not just the ones they have attended. Therefore everyone should have the same number of possible points.

The other topic that was also running in forum was that your having a problem with guys skipping out on cornering, why not put in fines if they don't corner when they are ment to or at least find a sub to do it for them. Your always trying to raise money or you can just deduct points off.

[Tom]

The possible points column isn't that important, and it is working correctly.  It is indicating  after 10 weeks of racing are up the most points you could possibly have when counting 5 weeks of points.  Since we've raced 6 weeks so far, that means that one of the 6 weeks results so far in the 5 best out of 10 series must be used.  Therefore, everyone's most possible could very well be different.

People leaving early isn't a big issue at this point in time, and I don't think it should be escilated into a bigger issue than it really is.  If we raise awareness of the issue, it will likely get people to think twice about it, and if they still want to leave, it's probably better for everyone if they do.  We don't want to keep people sticking around that are miserable; we are afterall just playing with our toy cars.

I was hoping this discussion would help figure out some better solutions to setting up the heats at the beginning of the night; unfortunately the real discussion covered other topics that aren't as challenging.

[haddow]

I was hoping this discussion would help figure out some better solutions to setting up the heats at the beginning of the night; unfortunately the real discussion covered other topics that aren't as challenging.

That was because your essay at the beginning of this thread described our system in detail and some of this discussion has elabrated on that, although I think it didnt go as far as you'd like because concensus is that the system is as good as it is going to get. If someone had something constructive to add it would have been done by now. No system will be perfect (read make everyone happy all the time) and ours is close so lets just go with what we have.

[RYY]

Tom,
To echo Jodys statment; the way things are is fine.  I think since you took the time to explain the set up and the differences and difficulties, it has cleared up a bunch of issues.  Again I know when ever I was involved in helping set up the qualifying it was done it the best interest of the club at the same time trying to please as many people as possible.  Tom and Blake keep up the good work as you have my full support in the decisions you have made thus far.
RYY

[Tom]

I was hoping this discussion would help figure out some better solutions to setting up the heats at the beginning of the night; unfortunately the real discussion covered other topics that aren't as challenging.

Hmmmm.  Obviously I wasn't clear on this statement; it does not clearly relfect what I was trying to say.

My intent was to inform everyone of what we did, to eliminate the inevitable whining when people are put in a race other than they wanted to be in.  I was never really intending to consider a different basic policy.

What I was hoping for though was some guidance about some other subtle points that I raised, such as Nick and Limey's situation when setting up heats next week.  We need a general solution to this inevitable situation, regardless of their personal opinion, since we're trying to make policy rules.  There are some other subtalties that are also not terribly clear that will take a fair bit of prose to explain.

I guess the message I'll take from this is now that people have had a chance to think it over, it's much more difficult to come up with a good solution to the problem than it at first appears, and that if you aren't in the race you were hoping for, it's for a good reason, not because someone just doesn't like you.

[Grinder]

I think a big part of the issue is that we did it based on the previous week's results all summer then there was a change over from that method to the one we are currently using.  I'm assuming its because there are more people that are less regular than in the summer?  People were probably caught off guard by the new system.  Now that we've established how it works I don't think it will be a big deal.  Like most people have been saying you can't please everyone all the time.  Besides I don't think most people relize how much time and effort it takes to take care of this stuff for the club.  I think instead of getting all pissed of we should be saying "thank you" a little more often...

[WhoDoYouThink]

Thank you! ;-)

Now, can we finally move on?

[Grinder]

Nope - its today's only active topic so it must remain ALIVE!

[SgRddY]

it's amazing how much ppl write on this board.  i mean wow, the time it takes to write and read all the threads...........

[cyrrus]

it still alive!!

[Tom]

I came to a realization last week while setting up the heats what one of the major problems is with the current system.

I'm not sure if we'll do anything about it, because as you can tell, it's a difficult problem to solve.  However, I thought I'd explain the problem so that people understand the issue, so everyone understands why they're in the race they're in.

We could likely solve the problem through a process of normalization; perhaps we'll end up doing that.

When setting up heats, I have two lists.  One list contains your finishing position from last week, the other is a measure of your overall ranking in the club.  Note that I said "a measure;" by no means are any metrics used definitive, or even fair.  They're just consistent, which is what matters most at this point in time.

So, let's take the example of last week.  The previous weeks results had 20 guys, and so far we've had 40 people running.  This means one list had 20 people, and the other had your overall ranking out of 40 people, and 28 guys showed up.  If you missed the previous week and you were 30th overall, your overall ranking will automatically put you last in the D.  However, since you're 30th overall out of 40 racers, you may very well believe you should be in the C, and I would agree with you.

The solution to this (as alluded to above) is called normalization.  You would take your position, divide by the total, then multiply by the number of people showing up this week.  So, someone ranked 30th out of 40 racers showing up on a night with 28 would be in position:

30 / 40 * 28 = 21 overall.  That would have put your ranking last in the C (before people were inserted), rather than last overall (before people were inserted).

I think this is a much better approach, but it's just one more step that can't be done 'till everyone has signed up for racing.

If I can remember to bring my calculator, maybe I'll try it this coming week.  But, this means that everyone must be prompt when it comes to signing up, since there is quite a bit of effort involved.

The situation could be described in more detail, but I'm supposed to be working now, and hopefully most people can figure out the problem without more details.