New ROAR Rules

[RC51]

what is it again that 19t tc does or for that matter 19 t pan? for the club that is

ummm ... it allows its membership with the motivation to race those cars to do so.

[BigDawg]

hmmmm, doesnt sound very impressive

[jarrodH]

Well all the new members would buy brushlessquote]

thats true the new memeber just starting to get stuff together would buy it.(asuming they know about the site, and read through the forums..) but i know of a 1 or 2 people that plan on joining us next summer and i think they already got their stuff together.

[BigDawg]

noody said we were cancelling anything !just trying to figure out how to try new stuff too-i think :?

[RC51]

It's actually quite impressive when compared to standing on the tarmac for 20 minutes in the late day sun inhaling nitro while 6 people marshall the 3 remaining cars on the track! LOL :lol:

Besides, the guys that could race those classes are card carrying members as well and IMHO, should have an equal opportunity to express a desire to participate in their epreferred lement of the hobby, too. :wink:

[WhoDoYouThink]

Well, IF we had 24 hours of daylight and perfect weather,  along with 30 or 40 thousand more "enthusiasts" to draw from, IROCC could run every possible class under the sun and never have to worry about getting corner marshals out to the track BEFORE the race even starts,  and everyone would be as happy as a clam. ;-) Yeah right! LOL
But seeing as how we're somewhat limited time wise, and don't live in a perfect world, we as a Club may have to make compromises in order to get a full day of racing action in. Especially if we plan on changing things up a bit.

I think we can all agree that we as R/C racers have to do something fairly soon to accommodate the new technology available to us for the upcoming  Outdoor season. Whether or not we jump in with both feet right now is the question.

Either that, or we choose another option, we do absolutely nothing.  Carry on just like last year.
NiMh only, of whatever brand and whatever capacity that is readily available, so long as they're not internally dead shorting themselves after just 2 charge cycles!  Stock Touring Car, 19T Touring Car and Nitro Touring Car only. No brushless, no LiPo, no LiMn, no Pro10, except as the existing exhibition class at lunchtime, IF we even get a lunchtime... same old, same old.
We keep the Status Quo and hopefully we keep everyone as happy as humanly possible.

Personally, I hope we lean towards some sort of moderate change(s).
For example, I'd love to see Pro10 become a legitimate IROCC class. Forgetting entirely about any possible similarity to Indoor 12th scale racing! I didn't run Pro10 last year, but I do remember what an absolute hoot 10th scale Pan Cars used to be way back in the day!

I think everyone knows where I stand in regards to NiMh after last Summer's battery nonsense!. If there is an acceptable and reliable alternative, such as the LiPo or LiMn, then we need to seriously consider what is required to make the transition.
But having said that, so far, the EP 4200NiMh packs I bought from Phil for 12th scale racing seem to be working just fine according to my tests. Oh sorry, that's right, again, the battery we're used to running successfully is in short supply, or unavailable, and now we have to consider 4600 or 5000Mah NiMh if we want to stay with that battery technology for this Summer.

What I don't want to see is this "possible/likely" adoption of new technology(s) turning into a mad spending spree, just for the sake of spending because some of us can.
That in my opinion, is NOT what IROCC is all about. We need to weigh our options very carefully and decide what will work best and most importantly, be reasonably affordable for the masses.

Fragmentation is the enemy. We've seen it, and some of us should remember the results.

[cyrrus]

hey guy's I sent a message to Dwayne from Calgary to ask a couple of question on how the brushless class is holding up in the Wcics series.  

I ask him how is it comparing to  the stock class.  there running the 13.5 brushless in a second class.  to see how the new tech. is comparing this is what he had to say.

Andrew.......the 13.5 novak is definately faster than brushed stock....the lrp 13.5 is slower than the novak and is more comparable to brushed....I can run almost the same lap times as the novak with a super fast brushed motor for the first 3 minutes but then the brushed motor fades where the brushless pulls strong the whole run. The WCICS series runs the classes seperatley because we wanted to see what the difference would be.


With this I don't really see a problem running the the 17.5.  I mean why not see how it goes.  why try it.  if we find that the top guys are winning with a brushless system,  It might not be the brushless system.  Now if it was I that was using a brushless and winning then we would have to look at it and make some changes.  as if you give a driver like Blake or Craig a brushless system so what they know how to drive.  .

I also so mind seeing a 19t mix with what ever (roar say it s the equivilant.)
(either of these 2 class must have a minimum of 6 to7 drivers to make a heat)
The Pro 10,  why switch with 19tc every other week.  I think that would be the most fair thing to do.

Nitro or gas,  propane, natural gas, or desiel. power cars,  let them live on.

The next think would be to  have a general meeting set up for the whole club to place there input,  then the club exc can properlly see what is wanted, but more what is needed for the club.

Then lets say after a month of outdoor racing, have another meeting to discuss to see what every one feel on the changes.Then see if we're actully heading in the right direction or see if we should take a step back.

[cyrrus]

hey guy's I sent a message to Dwayne from Calgary to ask a couple of question on how the brushless class is holding up in the Wcics series.  

I ask him how is it comparing to  the stock class.  there running the 13.5 brushless in a second class.  to see how the new tech. is comparing this is what he had to say.

Andrew.......the 13.5 novak is definately faster than brushed stock....the lrp 13.5 is slower than the novak and is more comparable to brushed....I can run almost the same lap times as the novak with a super fast brushed motor for the first 3 minutes but then the brushed motor fades where the brushless pulls strong the whole run. The WCICS series runs the classes seperatley because we wanted to see what the difference would be.


With this I don't really see a problem running the the 17.5.  I mean why not see how it goes.  why try it.  if we find that the top guys are winning with a brushless system,  It might not be the brushless system.  Now if it was I that was using a brushless and winning then we would have to look at it and make some changes.  as if you give a driver like Blake or Craig a brushless system so what they know how to drive.  .

I also so mind seeing a 19t mix with what ever (roar say it s the equivilant.)
(either of these 2 class must have a minimum of 6 to7 drivers to make a heat)
The Pro 10,  why switch with 19tc every other week.  I think that would be the most fair thing to do.

Nitro or gas,  propane, natural gas, or desiel. power cars,  let them live on.

The next think would be to  have a general meeting set up for the whole club to place there input,  then the club exc can properlly see what is wanted, but more what is needed for the club.

Then lets say after a month of outdoor racing, have another meeting to discuss to see what every one feel on the changes.Then see if we're actully heading in the right direction or see if we should take a step back.

[SgRddY]

leave my 19T class alone!  i have already dropped nitro and i want to be able to run more than 1 class in a day.  what's wrong with mixing pro10 and 19t?  most of pro10 and 19t are not beginners anyways (exept for me).

[RC51]

Hi, Guys.

As Darryl alluded to, there are 4 or 5 drivers from 19T that would be racing Pro10 so the numbers in 19T as a separate class would wane (Brian, me, Mick, possibly Daryl, possibly Kurk, Pat, Glenn).

BTW, there is roughly a 40watt difference in power bewtween a 27T brushed motor and a 13.5 which accounts for the need to separate those. However, 17.5 motors are approximately the same as the brushed motor at approx 130 watts. Brushed motors generally have more RPM than brushless yet brushless has more torque. We are working to gain more comparison data. Racer reports from the US say that on a tight track the brushless has more grunt but top end seems similar.

P.

[Tom]

What's wrong with mixing Pro 10 and 19 turn touring car?

Everything, that's what!

Pro 10 cars regularly turn several laps more in a race than 19 turn touring cars.  Not only that, but they run very different lines and have very different corner entry and exit speeds since they are different chassis types.

A much more sensible idea would be to mix 19 turn and stock touring car.  However, that's a stupid idea, due to the vastly different speed.  There's a similar difference in speed between pan cars and touring cars with the same motor, with the additon of different handling characteristics.

[Blake]

Hey all,


Lots of good posts here.  Impressive that IROCC can have a flame-free internet debate about such a controversial topic.  That level of maturity seems tough to find online these days.  Expressing your opinion is one thing, but actually "listening" to and hearing what others have to say is really key.


Blake

[Blake]

Question:


Does anyone have actual direct experience or scientific data to show the difference between running a 7.4 LiPo battery and a 7.2V NiMH battery with a 27T Stock motor in a touring car?  Maintenance and reliability issues aside, does one offer a performance advantage over the other?  What is the real truth here?


Blake

[RC51]

Good question, Blake. Trent may have something for you in terms of the math and comparsion data as may Kurk, Tom and others. There are some conflicting analyses out there from what we have uncovered, but generally from what I understand, the difference appears under high load situations most notable in 19T and upwards. LiPo has the ability to sustain 7 Volts at 100Amp whereas NiMh can only source approx 6 volts. I don't have anything on stock performance.

I'll ask the Big T to post here.

P.

[BigDaddyT]

Hi Blake,

This is a difficult one to measure as it seems that the difference between the technologies really exhibit under much higher amp loads than we normally measure during a discharge cycle.

NiMH seem to be good voltage-wise up to the 50A or so range for bursts and then they fall off. Good LiPo packs will hold 7.0v+ at up to 100A bursts (some even higher depending on the capacity of the pack).

In the past, my on-board telemetry devices record peak amp draw of 60-70A on stock motors, and 90A-100A on 19T during full acceleration.

Using this as a rough guideline, I would say that we would probably expect 27T stock motor performance to be fairly equivalent (maybe even a bit better with NiMH for smooth drivers) and then a spread will form for 19T and hotter motors because they will receive higher average volts during the peak draw during acceleration and accordingly will have a lot more "punch" on the track because more power can be delivered to the motor.

Qualitatively - the difference between running NiMH and LiPo on my brushless 3.5's last summer was night and day. However, when I used LiPo for stock practice, I didn't feel an immediate difference. I never raced stock with a LiPo in there because of the rules, but in practice it didn't seem any faster or slower.

Hopefully that helps - it's not an exact science, because we don't have anything resembling a discharger that will simulate 70A-90A spikes here in the shop, but from what I recorded on the cars and the posted specs of the cells, I think it's a fair guess.

I'm happy to put the logging data back on the cars and provide voltage versus amp draw numbers for a 27T on LiPo/NiMH if that is helpful for your upcoming decisions. Just let me know.


T